The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 17, 2010, 08:47 AM   #26
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,754
Quote:
Do BP Cartridges have vents or a way to vent?
Nope. I load 45lc with BP all the time, and I load cowboy action velocities with TrailBoss in BP (only) cartridge guns as well. I use a standard 45lc case and standard LP primers. I guess the old pinfires could vent a bit through the pin hole, but BP doesn't need a vent for good ignition. It just needs to be compressed a bit, unlike SP.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

Last edited by noelf2; November 17, 2010 at 08:54 AM.
noelf2 is offline  
Old November 17, 2010, 09:07 AM   #27
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,573
Stafford,

Thanks,

I thunk it was that a way.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old November 17, 2010, 10:50 AM   #28
Rangefinder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2005
Posts: 2,017
Quote:
Again I WILL NEVER be the tester on this but do you know anyone who has?
Yup---this guy has...Smokeless powder used in an BP rifle... Weak stomachs need not click the link.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...ad.php?t=77487

Although there is a lot of argument within the thread as to what actually caused the barrel failure, the professional opinion (a machinist and pro muzzle-loader maker) who showed me the details of this before the thread ever hit internet said it was because the guy used a volume measure meant for BP to load for smokeless and ended up with a slight overcharge.

While some BP's have been made for a smokeless cross-over, WHY DO IT? Want a muzzle loader? Great. BP is a fun sport. Don't want BP? Great--get a cartridge. Pouring smokeless (IMHO) down the barrel of a muzzle loader is kinda like tossing ammo in the campfire--never know when something is gonna go the wrong way, but it's just begging for it.
__________________
"Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?"

Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.
Rangefinder is offline  
Old November 17, 2010, 11:14 AM   #29
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey V.
I never thought this would have such a great debate! After reading everyones responses I am NOT going to buy the savage ML. I just don't feel it to be as safe as I want it to be and besides I love the smell on BP.
I have to say that I could not disagree with that decision any more than I do.

Even if I were going to shoot BP, it would be from a Savage.

But, I would NOT shoot BP.

The Savage is a fantastic gun. It is NOT NOT *NOT* a black powder gun that shoots smokeless.

It is DESIGNED to shoot smokeless powder. It is the ONLY muzzleloader on the market with a GUN QUALITY steel barrel.

Let that sink in.... other muzzle loaders do not use GUN quality steel in their GUN barrels.

My uncle has a Savage ML10. It is fantastic. 58gr N120 produces 2200+ fps from a 300gr Barnes Original 45cal bullet. The effect on deer has to be seen to be believed.

You will NOT regret buying an ML10.

Oh, and while we're at it, pay no attention to the rantings of the disgruntled former Savage employee who is the only person in the world who has ever managed to blow up an ML10, and he did it twice.

It has been PROVEN, more than once, that a Savage can handle a LITERAL double charge of smokeless power. The barrels are proof tested to 110,00 psi.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old November 17, 2010, 07:38 PM   #30
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 1,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Hoy
Do BP Cartridges have vents or a way to vent?
__________________
Well, I would suppose that every revolver is a "vented" system once the bullet gets past the forcing cone.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old November 17, 2010, 09:36 PM   #31
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 1,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
It is the ONLY muzzleloader on the market with a GUN QUALITY steel barrel.

Let that sink in.... other muzzle loaders do not use GUN quality steel in their GUN barrels.
Oh I don't know but I'm pretty sure the Stainless Steel Ruger Old Army pretty much uses the same barrel and barrel materials used in the .45 Long Colt version of their revolvers, in fact, I would even bet that that barrel could withstand "Ruger only" handloads in revolvers chambered for .45 LC. In fact, I don't see how, in this lawsuit happy society, a manufacturer would dare use anything less strong than "gun quality" steel in their barrels, just to cover their rears.

Also, modern cartridge breechloaders have been blown up by injudicious handloads.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old November 18, 2010, 10:56 AM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.L.E.
Oh I don't know but I'm pretty sure the Stainless Steel Ruger Old Army pretty much uses the same barrel and barrel materials used in the .45 Long Colt version of their revolvers, in fact, I would even bet that that barrel could withstand "Ruger only" handloads in revolvers chambered for .45 LC. In fact, I don't see how, in this lawsuit happy society, a manufacturer would dare use anything less strong than "gun quality" steel in their barrels, just to cover their rears.

Also, modern cartridge breechloaders have been blown up by injudicious handloads.

I'm talking about rifles. There might be other BP guns with similar barrels, I know nothing about handguns of this variety but the Savage is certainly one of a VERY few, if there are ANY others, with certified Gun Quality 416 stainless steel.

Of course, ANY firearm can be blown up. That's not the point. The point is that the Savage ML10 is proof tested to over 100,000psi, 129,000 I think. That's higher, by a lot, that most any center-fire rifle of which I am aware. Center-fire rifles are, I believe, tested to 20% over max, which is typically around 78,000psi max proof test. The Savage has been shown, more than once, to be capable of withstanding a LITERAL double charge of smokeless powder.

Also, the Savage is the only muzzleloader factory pillar bedded action and free floating barrel, not to mention the only muzzleloader with an Accu-Trigger.

What would happen to a... I don't know... CVA muzzleloader with a double charge of BP?
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old November 18, 2010, 11:20 AM   #33
Rangefinder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2005
Posts: 2,017
Quote:
What would happen to a... I don't know... CVA muzzleloader with a double charge of BP?
Probably nothing. Years ago when I was more interested in traditional forging (as in hammer and anvil with a billow on hot hickory charcoal) I did some research on traditional muzzle loader barrel forging techniques. One of the early methods of testing the forge-weld seam after finishing a barrel abd before mounting in a stock and lock was to mount it in a firing block and fire from a distance with a double charge, then inspect it. Part of the inspection was to check the bore diameter with a feeler rod. Any "loose" spots indicated bulging. Tight feel through the length of the bore was a 'good-to-go' approval. NOTE, this was an early method by individual smiths, not mass-production. BUT, the point is that the standard for barrel construction from the beginning was to be capable of handling a double charge with no ill effect.

Would I try it? NOPE. But they'd likely handle it just fine.
__________________
"Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?"

Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.
Rangefinder is offline  
Old November 18, 2010, 11:38 AM   #34
mrappe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 214
In cowboy action shooting some people load bp in a .45 Colt and some people load smokeless in the same cartridge but the pressure curve is different for each. Smokeless, from my understanding needs to be pressurized in a some controled way to realized its power. If you burn smokeless in the open air it burns very differently than it does under pressure. With a ML it would be hard to control the pressure and you may get something that under performs in one case and with a slightly different amount of powder and or compression space you might get blow the gun up. The chance of getting it right would be very low and not worth the risk.

Just my opinion
__________________
God is fluxing me which is good but it is not fun.
mrappe is offline  
Old November 18, 2010, 11:42 AM   #35
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,295
pressure

Sam Fadala did manage to blow up a MLer some years ago in a test of overcharges.
It's in one of his books - forget which one. I also don't recall how much of an overload he used.
There is a good discussion of this topic in the Gun Digest Black Powder Reloading Manual.
Pete
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old November 18, 2010, 01:31 PM   #36
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,573
DG

I think I remember that article. I also remember he had to do a lot of different things to get the barrel to let go. As I remember superimposed charges and gaps in charges and tremendous overloads.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old November 18, 2010, 07:02 PM   #37
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,295
DG

Doc: Yeah, that's the article in Gun Digest. There was a much earlier article in one of his "Sam Fadala's BP.....etc.". The pix had him wearing sidewhiskers from the 1970's so it was a few years ago.
Pete
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 08:45 PM   #38
Nite Ryder
Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2009
Location: So. Oregon
Posts: 81
Smokeless in a BP = dumb idea.

Joey,
You are wanting to speak to someone familar with using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, Savage Arms probably has several engineers who could answer your questions. Their first sentence will have the words "don't try it" somewhere before the period at the end. Even their model 10 ML muzzleloader is unsuitable to use many brands of common smokeless powder, they use powder made by only one or two companies and anything else is dangerous. There are a series of photographs floating around the internet of what used to be a stainless steel Savage model 10 ML, the barrel is split. Also in the series are photos of what used to be the shooters hand, minus fingers and thumb. It could be you if you continue out with this nightmare.
__________________
"Except For Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, WAR has never solved anything"
Nite Ryder is offline  
Old December 10, 2010, 11:48 AM   #39
Joey V.
Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2010
Posts: 55
Nite Ryder I never will..

Just to clarify if you read my post I said I never will do this.

I only seek the knowledge of why it "can't" be done in a safe way. I did kind of find my answer by calling a few powder companies. Seem as if Smokeless powder when it is "detonated" (their wording not mine) produces a massive pressure spike before it levels out and lower grade BP intended steal barrel can't take it. It will first blow out nipples and breech plugs and then if you’re stupid enough to keep strengthening the weak points as you proceed it will burst the barrels and probably kill ya. They did however tell me if you build a muzzleloader (in-line so no nipple to blow out) out of gun barrel steel and a strong enough CLOSED action you can do it with no problem just like savage did. I am not setup to do such a thing so again I would never do it nor would I want to. Well maybe I would LOVE to be able to because I could cash in on the $$$ millions Savage is pulling down but….. Besides I love the smell and simplicity of BP and that is why I won’t even buy the savage.
Joey V. is offline  
Old December 11, 2010, 09:25 PM   #40
lashlaroe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2010
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 180
I have found this thread to be quite interesting. I know that some of you were only tolerant in your discussion of this and maybe a few who...well...were...not, heh, heh, but in the end there was good information discussed and ideas brought forth.

While I know that we cannot assume that anyone reading these discussions will read all of a particular thread (or even a whole post sometimes it seems) and therefore jump to conclusions that may lead to a poor decision, we also should not stifle intelligent discussion on the off chance a fool will be as a fool is. My opinion of course.

I guess I'm saying that maybe some people remove themselves from the gene pool for a reason. Natural selection at it's best, if you will.

Oh, and I'll also say that I love BP shooting for what it is and prefer flintlock even, since that's where I get my thrill. Each to his own, eh?
__________________
Mike

As much as I believe that there is good in every person, I'm not so naive as to think that all people are essentially good. Evil and evil people exist. Deny that fact at your own risk.
lashlaroe is offline  
Old December 12, 2010, 07:04 PM   #41
simonkenton
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2008
Posts: 891
You are a man of imagination.
You are a thinker and an adventurer.

You want to go where no other man has gone before.

You remind me of Otto Lilienthal, whose last words were "Sacrifices must be made."
simonkenton is offline  
Old December 12, 2010, 07:14 PM   #42
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,718
Last words. Theres the rub.
Hawg is offline  
Old December 13, 2010, 03:51 AM   #43
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

I'm sorry folks all I can do is shake my head no again on this question...
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 15, 2010, 02:46 PM   #44
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,295
systems

Quote:
Do BP Cartridges have vents or a way to vent?
I was revisiting this thread and this question caught my eye and my attention. The answer is, of course, no. Within the context of this thread, though, the question of "venting" in cartridges as opposed to front stuffers is at least a bit off the track. One can load a cartridge with either and the cartridge will probably be safe if the gun is safe. Neither BP nor smokeless powder require a vent.
The difference is that a muzzleloader, by default, is not sealed - the nipple or flash hole provide a way for gas to escape and it does; while the lower pressures of BP are normally not an issue when the gun is fired, the pressures of smokeless powders are.

Also -
If there is any doubt about whether or not smokeless propellants can be ignited by percussion caps, follow this link.....http://forums.handloads.com/forum_po...TID=27675&PN=1

Pete
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member

Last edited by darkgael; December 15, 2010 at 02:56 PM.
darkgael is offline  
Old December 15, 2010, 08:17 PM   #45
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 1,901
Quote:
the nipple or flash hole provide a way for gas to escape and it does; while the lower pressures of BP are normally not an issue when the gun is fired, the pressures of smokeless powders are.
Modern revolvers vent high pressure gasses between the cylinder and barrel and even with some of the extreme magnums where pressures approach or exceed 50,000 psi, that cylinder gap seems to hold up quite well.

You can also blow up modern cartridge guns with injudicious use of powder. That bozo who was the subject of that link would likely have blown up a modern magnum revolver if he had gotten ahold of some reloading equipment and a can of Red Dot or Bullseye.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old December 15, 2010, 10:00 PM   #46
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,295
OK

Quote:
that cylinder gap seems to hold up quite well
Absolutely. That gap --- you wouldn't want any part of your body near it when it was venting. Think about where a nipple on a BP pistol or a BP rifle is pointing when it vents gases.
Pete
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old December 15, 2010, 11:30 PM   #47
DrLaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2007
Location: Wild Western Illinois
Posts: 559
I was going to be snide and say that this thread should be locked down for excessive stupidity, but I will be nice and won't.

No reason my being ticked right now should lead me to say what I am thinking and hurt anybody's feelings.

The Doc is out now.
__________________
General McAuliffe said it best "Nuts."
DrLaw is offline  
Old December 16, 2010, 02:17 PM   #48
Joey V.
Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2010
Posts: 55
DrLaw your a good guy!

Drlaw,

I applaud you for not wanting to shut this down because this thread might just save someone’s life some day! I mean this sincerely...

Also, I learned more from this thread than I ever could have imagined... I also learned that just because you read something on the net doesn't make it so hahaha!!!

I recently have been reading many OOOOOLLLLLD reloading books my grand pap gave to me about black powder and loads and a lot of good stuff. I am going to be a much safer guy at the range now for it all. Best part about all of the stuff I learned is how to VERY INTELEGENTLY tell others why they should NEVER use Smokeless in a BP gun instead of just saying "well just don't do it" because that does nothing to deter. Remeber back when you would say "awh mom why can't I"? Her reply usually was "BECAUSE I SAID SO"? That doesn't cut it for adaults...Because we are stupid!

THX again EVERYONE!
Joey V. is offline  
Old December 16, 2010, 10:42 PM   #49
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 1,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgael
Absolutely. That gap --- you wouldn't want any part of your body near it when it was venting. Think about where a nipple on a BP pistol or a BP rifle is pointing when it vents gases.
Pete
You really don't want any part of your body in line with the cylinder gap of a revolver loaded with black powder either.
Anyway, what I have mostly been trying to say is that it's not just about the strength of the guns. The cap and nipple system is just not suitable for smokeless powder. Smokeless wants to be kicked off hard with a powerful primer in a sealed system.
Black powder is fine with just having a glowing ember dropped on it.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old December 17, 2010, 05:30 AM   #50
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,295
yep

BLE: +1 about that.
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13954 seconds with 9 queries