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Old November 19, 2010, 09:11 PM   #1
ethan95
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Gun Confiscation in NJ

A local gun shop just contacted me about the firearm i recently purchased, an Inter Ordnance AK-47. the state police said the attorney general has decided the firearm is an "assault rifle" and the for all guns to be returned to the store within 48 hours. The AK is completely legal according to NJ state law, no bayonet lug, no telescopic stock, no flash hider, and no threaded barrel; but its an "assault rifle." If they don't receive the firearm within 48 hours, i will be guilty of a felony, and they will come and confiscate it. Frankly this situation has me more scared than angry. Will my NJ legal AR-15 be confiscated soon as well? I'm not looking to break any laws so i will on return it to the store tomorrow, how ever the lady who contacted me stated the situation may be resolved and in that case, i will have my baby.....uhh i mean firearm returned. Any thoughts or suggestions on the situation?

"ASSAULT RIFLE" LAWS From NJSP WEB SITE


"Assault firearms" means:
1. Any of the following firearms: Algimec AGM1 type Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12" Armalite AR-180 type Australian Automatic Arms SAR Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms Bushmaster Assault Rifle Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900 CETME G3
Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types Demro TAC-1 carbine type
Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types FAMAS MAS223 types FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns G3SA type Galil type Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1 Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms M1 carbine type M14S type MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9 mm carbine type firearms PJK M-68 carbine type Plainfield Machine Company Carbine Ruger K-Mini-14/5 F and Mini-14/5 RF SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types SKS with detachable magazine type Spectre Auto carbine type Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun Uzi type semi-automatic firearms Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms Weaver Arm Nighthawk;


2. Any firearm manufactured under any designation, which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed in paragraph 1 above. As used in this definition, the term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing and the term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: the name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; and a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list. A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

i. A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock; (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (3) A bayonet mount; (4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and (5) A grenade launcher;

ii. A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; (3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and/or (5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and

iii. A semi-automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock; (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of six rounds; and/or (4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine;
3. A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a folding stock or a pistol grip;
4. A semi-automatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 15 rounds; or
5. A part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts
are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
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Old November 19, 2010, 09:46 PM   #2
Spats McGee
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Are you sure that it was the gun shop that contacted you? This sounds fishy. I'd call the state police and ask. If it does turn out to be true, I'd contact a civil rights attorney immediately, preferably one that knows a little Second Amendment law.
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Old November 19, 2010, 09:50 PM   #3
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it absolutely was, i actually called the store back later and talked to the owner, he validated everything. civil rights attorney sounds like a fine idea to me at this point. Theres also an NRA hearing about it tonight, there all over it.
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Old November 19, 2010, 09:56 PM   #4
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I looked at the NJSP site, as well as the NJ Attorney General. I found the definition, but I didn't see anything about confiscation. From the looks of things, AK-47s have been "assault firearms" there for a long time. How is it that the AG is suddenly deciding to confiscate? And under what authority? Go to the NRA hearing, get on the agenda if you can. Let the NRA (or any other pro-RKBA association that can help) know about it.

Edited to add: The NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund can be found here: http://www.nradefensefund.org/requesting_help.aspx
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:04 PM   #5
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yes but, they say "Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms" are illegal, id love to know what they mean . no where on my firearm does it say "Kalashnikov" or "ak47". Thanks for all the help Spats McGee, its much appreciated.
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:07 PM   #6
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But your own statement was that the firearm is an "Inter Ordnance AK-47."

Keep us posted on this one. It's a real problem if your state AG has suddenly decided that a permissible (if regulated) firearm is suddenly subject to confiscation. A REAL problem.

Edited to add: And I'm glad to help.
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:08 PM   #7
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definately return the weapon tomorrow as you said within the deadline plus retrieve some type of official receipt which should be provided anyway. Just like a bill you dispute & don't think you owe, its better to pay the bill if possible before your credit is ruined and then go into plan b after. plan b here: at the very least talk to an attorney who specializes in these types of situations ethan. You might also want to talk to some organizations who deal with the protection of civilian's gun rights. good luck plus please keep us posted. you might have something here that can go a long way and prove to be Good for you in more ways than one and as well as the rights of fellow gun owners.
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:10 PM   #8
ethan95
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Quote:
But your own statement was that the firearm is an "Inter Ordnance AK-47"
yes i did, and now im eating my words lol

And like you said it is a problem, hopefully its resolved soon.
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:33 PM   #9
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I would guess that "AK type" equals whatever you bought. Making it illegal.

I am guessing, I don't know anything about the laws in NJ, but it sounds like that is the issue.
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:43 PM   #10
ethan95
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@Conn. Trooper- i guess that's the problem, but that doesn't justify it. Citizens lawfully owning a firearm for recreational purposes doesn't warrant a confiscation. I also never thought that "Kalashnikov type" could be considered a legal term.
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:48 PM   #11
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There's a reason I don't move back to the northeast....

.... and this firearm issue is one facet of it.

But I don't want to get political... For those of you who do live there, though, perhaps you should get political, if you aren't already, and maybe let the people who make some of these rules know that you don't appreciate them, and that they do affect your votes.
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:52 PM   #12
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So does this mean Inter Ordinance will now be/has just become banned from sales of AK clones in the great state of Jersey?
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Old November 19, 2010, 10:59 PM   #13
ethan95
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Quote:
So does this mean Inter Ordinance will now be/has just become banned from sales of AK clones in the great state of Jersey?
as off right now, yes they have
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Old November 19, 2010, 11:08 PM   #14
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From what I could tell, AKs have been classified as an "assault firearm" for years. Assuming that the OP has gotten correct info, there are huge legal problems with the NJAG doing this.
  • If it was legal to possess when you purchased it, and you purchased it legally (& I have no reason to think otherwise), how does the AG suddenly make possession a crime? That's a separation of powers problem, as your AG probably doesn't have legislative authority.
  • Has the legislature recently passed something that allows the AG to confiscate them?
  • Has the AG "interpreted" a statute to mean he or she can confiscate?
  • Is someone going to pay you for your AK? If not, I'd call it a taking without just compensation.
  • I'd be looking for a paper trail, and making copies of everything I found. A move this big can't happen without someone putting together a memo.
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Old November 19, 2010, 11:11 PM   #15
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Jeez, not really any way to know how far back they would go.
Seems like a poor use of gun store or manufacturer's files/lists.
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Old November 19, 2010, 11:13 PM   #16
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I spent most of the eighties and some of the nineties in NJ. They really make you jump through hoops to buy a handgun. Forget about ccw, at least back then. You could carry the handgun in your car. Locked in the trunk with ammo locked elsewhere. Odd that Pennsylvania has ccw and much more agreeable to gun rights. I'm in FL now and staying.
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Old November 19, 2010, 11:16 PM   #17
ethan95
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it seems as though around 500 were sold just through the store i bought mine from. I bet there are about 30 other places selling them. That's not a small confiscation at all. Hopefully the other 2000+ buyers are just as angered as i am.
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Old November 19, 2010, 11:20 PM   #18
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Tomorrow morning, call a few other gun shops for confirmation, as well.
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Old November 19, 2010, 11:23 PM   #19
ethan95
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Tomorrow morning, call a few other gun shops for confirmation, as well.
sounds like a good idea to me, will do.
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Old November 19, 2010, 11:37 PM   #20
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I am not a NJ legal expert. I do sell firearms to NJ. If the AG acts to confiscate your rifle retroactively you should at least have grounds with the State Department of Revenue to have the amount of retail sales tax for the rifle refunded to you. I know this is not much, but something is better than nothing.
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Old November 20, 2010, 12:34 AM   #21
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Wow!
Glad I live in2 states that are significantly more liberal gun wise.
One question: what would happen if the gun was not currently in NJ?
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Old November 20, 2010, 12:53 AM   #22
ethan95
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what would happen if the gun was not currently in NJ?
that was my first thought. I have a few friends in pa who would be more than willing to watch over her . But if i don't turn it in the state police are gonna be knocking on (possibly knocking down) my door, thinking that i was just hiding it. I suppose i could do the transfer at the gun store and sell it to a trusted friend for $.01. Then i would have all the paper work, and the serial number released from me.
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Old November 20, 2010, 01:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
that was my first thought. I have a few friends in pa who would be more than willing to watch over her . But if i don't turn it in the state police are gonna be knocking on (possibly knocking down) my door, thinking that i was just hiding it. I suppose i could do the transfer at the gun store and sell it to a trusted friend for $.01. Then i would have all the paper work, and the serial number released from me.
It may be legal for you to legally transfer the rifle rather than to have it conficated.

New Jersey Revised Statutes as of 2008

Was the rifle registered as an "Assault Firearm"?

2C:58-12. Registration of assault firearms
a. Within 90 days of the effective date of P.L.
1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-12 et al.), the Attorney
General shall promulgate a list by trade name of
any assault firearm which the Attorney General
determines is an assault firearm which is used
for legitimate target-shooting purposes. This list
shall include, but need not be limited to, the Colt
AR-15 and any other assault firearm used in
competitive shooting matches sanctioned by the
Director of Civilian Marksmanship of the United
States Department of the Army.
b. The owner of an assault firearm purchased
on or before May 1, 1990 which is on the list of
assault firearms determined by the Attorney
General to be legitimate for target-shooting purposes
shall have one year from the effective
date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-12 et al.) to
register that firearm. In order to register an assault
firearm, the owner shall:
(1) Complete an assault firearm registration
statement, in the form to be prescribed by the
Superintendent of the State Police;
(2) Pay a registration fee of $50.00 per each
assault firearm;
(3) Produce for inspection a valid firearms
purchaser identification card, a valid permit to
carry handguns, or a copy of the permit to purchase
a handgun which was used to purchase
the assault firearm which is being registered;
and
(4) Submit valid proof that the person is a
member of a rifle or pistol club in existence prior
to the effective date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:
58-12 et al.).
Membership in a rifle or pistol club shall not
be considered valid unless the person joined the
club no later than 210 days after the effective
date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-12 et al.) and
unless the rifle or pistol club files its charter with
the Superintendent no later than 180 days following
the effective date of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.
2C:58-12 et al). The rifle or pistol club charter
shall contain the name and address of the club's
headquarters and the name of the club's
officers.
The information to be provided in the registration
statement shall include, but shall not be limited
to: the name and address of the registrant;
the number or numbers on the registrant's firearms
purchaser identification card, permit to carry
handguns, or permit to purchase a handgun;
the name, address, and telephone number of
the rifle or pistol club in which the registrant is a
member; and the make, model, and serial number
of the assault firearm being registered. Each
registration statement shall be signed by the
registrant, and the signature shall constitute a
representation of the accuracy of the information
contained in the registration statement.
c. For an applicant who resides in a municipality
with an organized full-time police department,
the registration shall take place at the
main office of the police department. For all
other applicants, the registration shall take place
at any State Police station.
d. Within 60 days of the effective date of P.L.
1990, c. 32 (C.2C-58-12 et al.), the Superintendent
shall prepare the form of registration statement
as described in subsection b. of this section
and shall provide a suitable supply of statements
to each organized full-time municipal police
department and each State Police station.
e. One copy of the completed assault firearms
registration statement shall be returned to the
registrant, a second copy shall be sent to the
Superintendent, and, if the registration takes
place at a municipal police department, a third
copy shall be retained by that municipal police
department.
f. If the owner of an assault firearm which has
been registered pursuant to this section dies, the
owner's heirs or estate shall have 90 days to dispose
of that firearm in accordance with section
12 of P.L. 1990, c. 32 (C.2C:58-13).
g. If an assault firearm registered pursuant to
the provisions of this section is used in the commission
of a crime, the registrant of that assault
firearm shall be civilly liable for any damages resulting
from that crime. The liability imposed by
this subsection shall not apply if the assault firearm
used in the commission of the crime was
stolen and the registrant reported the theft of the
firearm to law enforcement authorities within 24
hours of the registrant's knowledge of the theft.
h. Of the registration fee required pursuant to
subsection b. of this section, $20.00 shall be forwarded
to the State Treasury for deposit in the
account used by the Violent Crimes Compensation
Board in satisfying claims and for related
administrative costs pursuant to the provisions
of the "Criminal Injuries Compensation Act of
1971," P.L. 1971, c. 317 (C.52:4B-1 et seq.).

Legal transfer in you state can be made without an FFL. If you were to have a local FFL send the rifle to another FFL (out of state) he would not record this as an acquisition unless a trade or money exchanged hands between you and your local dealer. The receiving FFL would record the transaction as an acquisition. The firearm could then be transfered by that FFL to a buyer subject to ATF Form 4473 and a background check.

2C:58-13. Transfer of assault firearm to another;
rendering inoperable; voluntarily surrendering
a. Any person who legally owns an assault
firearm on the effective date of this act and who
is unable to register or chooses not to register
the firearm pursuant to section 11 of P.L. 1990,
c. 32 (C.2C:58-12) may retain possession of that
firearm for a period not to exceed one year from
the effective date of this act. During this time
period, the owner of the assault firearm shall
either:
(1) Transfer the assault firearm to any person
or firm lawfully entitled to own or possess such
firearm;
(2) Render the assault firearm inoperable; or
(3) Voluntarily surrender the assault firearm
pursuant to the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-12.
b. If the owner of an assault firearm elects to
render the firearm inoperable, the owner shall
file a certification on a form prescribed by the
Superintendent of the State Police indicating the
date on which the firearm was rendered inoperable.
This certification shall be filed with either
the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality
in which the owner resides or, in the case
of an owner who resides outside this State but
stores or possesses an assault firearm in this
State, with the Superintendent of the State Police.
c. As used in this section, "inoperable" means
that the firearm is altered in such a manner that
it cannot be immediately fired and that the owner
or possessor of the firearm does not possess or
have control over the parts necessary to make
the firearm operable.
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Old November 20, 2010, 01:45 AM   #24
ethan95
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Quote:
Was the rifle registered as an "Assault Firearm"?
the firearm was never registered as an assault rifle, i was just notified today that its an "assault rifle". i think legally transferring it in-store (so there's a paper trail) is a good solution.
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Old November 20, 2010, 02:09 AM   #25
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Quote:
the firearm was never registered as an assault rifle, i was just notified today that its an "assault rifle". i think legally transferring it in-store (so there's a paper trail) is a good solution.
In the state where I do business, there is no oversight by any local or State police agency. In NJ, I believe FFL's are regularly inspected. It is also possible that the FFL was notified by the Attorney Generals Office or the Stat Police that the Subject Firearm has been or is being examine for inclusion to the AG's list of "Assault Firearms."

If the firearm is classified by the state as an "Assault Firearm" there should be a grace period of more than 48 hours. I would ask the FFL dealer to send you a certified letter of the directive that prompted his call to you.

1. You may be able to register the firearm

2. There may be legal recourse between you and the FFL dealer if he knew it was prohibited on the date of the sale. Small claims court might then be recommended if the dealer was not willing to refund the purchase amount. Times, dates and records of what has transpired are critical for you.

3. A transfer to an out of state party does seem to be a legitimate course of action. Either your local FFL or you can send the rifle to an out of state FFL for transfer. You cannot legally ship the firearm intrastate except to an FFL.

Keep us posted on this.
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