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Old November 3, 2010, 05:17 PM   #276
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...a few folks that belive CCW permit holders need a higher level of training. but it has been entertqaining specially from them that are "trainers". Of course they will take this position, if they said otherwise folks would not come to them and pay them fo0r this service,...
And let me make this clear. I have been helping teach people shooting for almost ten years. I have never taken so much a nickle in compensation. I am now working with a local group of instructor who put on monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes as well as periodic Personal Protection classes. None of us take any compensation. Class fees are set to only cover expenses.

Last May, I went to Arizona to work with Massad Ayoob as an assistant instructor in his MAG40 class in Sierra Vista. I paid my own way and received no compensation.

I consider myself fortunate to be able to make this contribution to both the RKBA and responsible gun ownership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...Now I can also tell you about my years as a bouncer it was in a rough part of town, I was shot at, stabbed once, removed weapons from a few. I have been shot in the left shoulder. Had my calf ripped open to the bone once. Got bones in the right hand that were broke and didnt set right....
You might have been better off if you had had some better training.
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Old November 3, 2010, 05:22 PM   #277
AZAK
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Glenn E. Meyer

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To each his own. Here's a test - if you in a critical incident, shoot an innocent and are sued - will you not contest the lawsuit and pay up any reasonable amount? If charged with negligent homocide or an assault charge - which can happen, will you plead guilty.
You answered your own question in the first sentence.

I would say that it would come down to if a jury of my peers considered my actions (given your scenario) "reasonable" for the situation.

I pray that I personally never am in a situation to use a firearm for anything other than recreation, and hunting. As I have finite time and resources I will accord them as I see fit; with out any feelings of "guilt" at not pursuing additional firearm training purely out of a "moral obligation".
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Old November 3, 2010, 05:28 PM   #278
Glenn E. Meyer
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Well, we have to disagree. As stated many times before in my view, seeking reasonable competence in using an instrument of lethal force in a situation where innocents may come to harm because of my action is a moral obligation.

If you don't, then there is little to say. If you want to have a jury of your peers decide what is right or wrong - that's your choice.

That standard voids most internal moral codes and regresses to what you can get away with for your own self interest.

We are going in circles. Some have standard X and some have standard Y. Not taking responsibility and hoping a jury lets you go is not my standard.
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Old November 3, 2010, 05:35 PM   #279
AZAK
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Glenn E. Meyer

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That standard voids most internal moral codes and regresses to what you can get away with for your own self interest.
Wow. I personally have been involved in a number of court cases, never as a "plaintiff" or as the "accused", including sitting on a number of juries including federal court (as head juror), and find your view of our judicial system and juries as rather shocking.

Quote:
Well, we have to disagree
Of this, I am in total agreement.
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Old November 3, 2010, 06:38 PM   #280
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by markj: You guys are funny, this isnt about me, it is about a few folks that belive CCW permit holders need a higher level of training. but it has been entertqaining specially from them that are "trainers". Of course they will take this position, if they said otherwise folks would not come to them and pay them fo0r this service, so any non comercials out there want to post on this subject?
OK, let me try this.

Self defense shootings and LEO engagements have two things in common with air or armored combat and with serious emergencies that happen in an airplane or on a manned spacecraft or on a submarine: (1) they do not occur very frequently, and (2) in any one event, there is a large number of ways in which events may unfold.

So, in order to come up with strategies with which to handle them and, yes, to train for them, participants have to simulate the events, as realistically as possible. Scenarios are devised in which adversaries attempt to defeat each other, and/or in which participants try to react effectively to developments as they happen.

Some of our members here (I am not among them) have gone to the National Tactical Invitational, in which participants try out different approaches in realistic environs using simunitions.

One thing they can learn from this is that has been discussed in another thread is how to avoid getting killed in the event of a home invasion--how defensive tactics can be used more effectively than walking into an ambush.

Another thing that is learned from such simulation, and this is important here, is what kinds of skills are needed to shoot one or more assailants before they can shoot you should an imminent threat materialize--how fast you must be able to draw and fire, perhaps while running for cover, to make it out of there successfully.

I have alluded to some of the times and distances involved:

Quote:
... draw very quickly (say, in 1.5 seconds), hit an assailant in center mass, who is probably moving, twice in, say, another .5 seconds or less, and if necessary, hit another assailant twice in a similar amount of time, at seven yards.
This, of course, is to be done without spraying bullets in a negligent manner that puts others at great risk.

Now most of us who have taken training believe that we will not be able to do that without practicing what we have been trained.

So, my question to you, markj, is this:
  1. Do you believe that most people can meet those performance objectives without training and practice, or
  2. do you somehow believe that the abilities I have described are somehow not likely to be needed, should the unlikely event of a person's having to defend himself or herself self out doors actually occur?

Remember, we're dealing with conditional probabilities here. If no one attacks you, you don't need a gun at all, but if it does happen.... Also remember that if you are not in imminent danger, you may not even draw your gun lawfully.

If your answer is the latter, and I remind you that the scenarios have been developed by experts and that we pay to have our police officers trained to be able to do those things among many others, perhaps you could enlighten us with the basis for your thinking.

By the way, I am discussing what William Lee described earlier as

Quote:
.. the .. garden variety sd situations (in which one or two muggers approach you in a dark alley, parking lot, wherever),...
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Old November 3, 2010, 06:39 PM   #281
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
...If you want to have a jury of your peers decide what is right or wrong - that's your choice.

That standard voids most internal moral codes and regresses to what you can get away with for your own self interest...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZAK
Wow. I personally have been involved in a number of court cases,... including sitting on a number of juries including federal court (as head juror), and find your view of our judicial system and juries as rather shocking.
But Glenn's statement was not a statement of an opinion on the judicial system or juries. It was a comment on your apparent willingness to leave the question of the propriety of your conduct to a jury, deciding such question based on a legal standard after your opportunity to justify your actions.

On the other hand, character has been defined as how we conduct ourselves when no one is watching.
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Old November 3, 2010, 06:47 PM   #282
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by AZAK: I personally have been involved in a number of court cases, never as a "plaintiff" or as the "accused", including sitting on a number of juries including federal court (as head juror), and find your view of our judicial system and juries as rather shocking.
As Fiddletown has pointed out, Glenn E. Meyer has not expressed a view on our judicial system and juries. He does, however, have some understanding of the risk that you seem willing to assume. I think you might benefit from reading some of Dr. Meyer's published writings on the subject.

To borrow from the advertisements of a financial firm that were aired about twenty years ago, when Glenn E. Meyer speaks, I listen.
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Old November 3, 2010, 06:52 PM   #283
Bud Helms
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12 pages long. 281 posts. Wow.

My congratulations to most of you that hung in and contributed in a thoughtful way, but there's little likelihood a newcomer to the topic will read all this and get up to speed.

Let's give it a rest. Maybe in a week or two we can ease into this topic again.

For now: Closed.
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