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Old November 1, 2010, 02:22 AM   #1
MLeake
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A great example of why law-abiding citizens need the RKBA

Article from today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/murd...ow-707754.html

These guys are frightening, if only because they have such obviously low regard for human (and canine) life.

Most of us live in neighborhoods where we don't normally encounter these guys; but in many cases, they aren't that many driving minutes away.
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Old November 1, 2010, 07:58 AM   #2
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What is a a "RKBA"?
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Old November 1, 2010, 08:07 AM   #3
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It helps. But that is really beside the point, and not the intention for it anyway. This problem could be fixed with better education, better law enforcement and more opportunities for people. Barring that arms are only a final solution for a problem that got out of control.
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Old November 1, 2010, 08:23 AM   #4
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What is a a "RKBA"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_t..._and_bear_arms

Frightening story, sad to hear that a former Marine is involved in this brutality.

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Old November 1, 2010, 08:24 AM   #5
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Education would merely give you smarter gang members more likely to not have firearms malfunctions but have better planning for their exploits. More armed citizens and police allowed to be tougher might help.
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Old November 1, 2010, 09:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
It helps. But that is really beside the point, and not the intention for it anyway. This problem could be fixed with better education, better law enforcement and more opportunities for people. Barring that arms are only a final solution for a problem that got out of control.
You sound like an optimist. Criminals are criminals because they don't want to work hard for what they have. Why work hard when you can just take it from someone else? What kind of money can you make from a minimum wage job compared to selliing drugs and robbing people? What kind of "better opportunities" are you talking about? Over paying people to do a job they are barely qualified to do (Unions come to mind), and make companies even less competitive than they already are?

Gang life and violence are glamorized in movies and music, and these kids can't seperate fact and fiction. The biggest issue in my opinion is lack of parenting skills these days. Parents either don't know how, don't have time, or just don't care to teach their children right from wrong. How are you going to educate when the high school gradualtion rate for black and hispanic males hovers right around 60%. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2010/2010015/...igure_18_2.asp This, in turn, means they are more likely to be unemployed and earn less than others. Even if better opportunities existed, would they be able to get those jobs?

As for better law enforcement, good luck with that. Most cities are bleeding money right now and are actually cutting back on services since tax revenues are way down. I do believe a massive crack down on gang activity is required and the application of RICO laws would probably give police much more authority. Like I said though, money is tight.

I hate to sound brash about it, but the best cure for this disease is often a good dose of lead poisoning, administered through a gun. Our court and legal system is a joke and is one of the most bureaucratic and inefficient systems on the planet. (Maybe I've sat through jury duty too many times). In jail, they just learn from more hardened criminals and establish new ties. How many people are actually rehabilitated in prison? I doubt a very high percentage.

So sorry to rant on your opptomistic parade.
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Old November 1, 2010, 09:15 AM   #7
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DUH..........

There is a reason I shouldn't post before my morning coffee.
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Old November 1, 2010, 09:21 AM   #8
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Armed citizens are the cure for gangs. It will establish fear for the gangs and authority for the citizens.
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Old November 1, 2010, 09:23 AM   #9
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Not the intention for it anyway?

MTT TL, should I assume that you are one of the "for militia purposes only" advocates? If not, what "intention" do you mean?

I'd say the right to self-defense always was an intended part of 2A; defense against criminals, and ultimately (as borne out by writings of the founders, such as the Federalist Papers; and also as borne out by their own prior actions) defense against a potentially tyrannic government.

Seem to recall from some of your other posts that you are or were military. You may recall CJCS guidance on the "inherent right and responsibility" of self-defense of own unit, own national units, and designated friendly units. Do you really think the founders intended to allow only government representatives the "inherent right" of self-defense?

But I may have misunderstood your meaning...

I'm pretty sure I understand and agree with you that education, youth programs, and similar methods for preventing kids from joining gangs in the first place are the better way; I think we should fund and support such methods. But, even with those in place, there will always be true low-lifes. We can (ideally) minimize their numbers through positive means. However, when one finds oneself confronted by these types, it does no good at that point to wish for better social programs.
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Old November 1, 2010, 09:30 AM   #10
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You sound like an optimist. Criminals are criminals because they don't want to work hard for what they have.
I am an optimist and disagree a bit. I believe that criminals are criminals for all kinds of reasons. For example they might lack an ethical moral center or be raised in a culture that mandates violence and criminal activity for success. Strangely what has been shown is that all kinds of people without a strong moral center are willing to commit a crime for a small reward if they think that they can get away with it, so many are criminals of opportunity.

What I have noticed is that criminal activity is less in areas where people have better education and opportunities, this is indisputable. It seems to follow that there are at least some environmental causes. Feel free to disagree, it does not hurt my feelings any.


Quote:
I hate to sound brash about it, but the best cure for this disease is often a good dose of lead poisoning, administered through a gun.
That sounds on the verge of bloodthirsty. Bloodthirsty for criminals that is. I am more interested in looking for better, less violent solutions.
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Old November 1, 2010, 09:32 AM   #11
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Better law enforcement...

As stephen426 noted, the current budget situation for most metro areas isn't likely to lend itself to accelerated LEO hiring, nor expanded foot patrols, nor increased Gang Response Units.

And oddly enough, while Police Chiefs associations and different groups of mayors tend to favor stricter gun control, their view often does NOT seem to be shared by patrol officers and detectives.

I've had two cousins in Massachusetts, and a friend in Washington state, run into problems with stalkers or, in one case, threats of physical harm from known criminals. In those three cases, the investigating officers recommended my cousins and my friend "get a gun," because the police can't be everywhere, and even a fast response time is likely to be too late.

For that matter, I have a fair amount of LEO friends, ranging from city PD officers to deputy sheriffs to Customs to FBI. None of the patrol cops, narcotics cops, or field agents I know favor stricter gun control for law-abiding citizens. Every one of my acquaintances favor "shall issue" for CCW.

Go figure.
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Old November 1, 2010, 10:20 AM   #12
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I wonder how much work there is to being a criminal, given that the subject has finally come up. Whether it is hard work or not, it is certainly a risky occupation. But then as in most professions, the rewards are relative to the risk.

I am a little disturbed by the idea that the answer to problems is "lead poisoning." Generally speaking, that is how dictators deal with their problems and on top of that, they get to say what the problems are.
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Old November 1, 2010, 10:23 AM   #13
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As stephen426 noted, the current budget situation for most metro areas isn't likely to lend itself to accelerated LEO hiring, nor expanded foot patrols, nor increased Gang Response Units.
Near my hometown the police are paid better on average than all other government workers except finance administrators (accountants and financial planners). Guiliani for all his faults proved credibly that more stringent law enforcement will lead to lower crime.

I think that police compensation for many places is a little on the high end these days because back when the economy was booming they had to raise wages significantly to compete. If they lowered compensation packages they could hire more officers these days and cut less.
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Old November 1, 2010, 10:30 AM   #14
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A Big Mess

Yet another example of the USA & the rest of the world disintegrating at Warp-Speed!
Huckabee said (about terrorists) "you can't reason with evil, youv'e got to destroy it"! Same applies here.
No matter what we do & how the election(s) goes we are not going to derail prophesy. It is NOT going to get better, we are NOT going to revert to the good ole days. AND, I am NOT a "doomsday-er", but for your own sake and the sake of your loved ones, prepare for what WILL happen.
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Old November 1, 2010, 10:46 AM   #15
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I'm sorry but education and better "options" don't seem to really work to well.

From the article:

Quote:
Another defendant, Derek “Montana” Davis, a 28-year-old former Morehouse College student, pleaded guilty to reduced charges last week. Davis — from an accomplished family headed by a mother who’s a banker, a father who is a counselor and his stepfather, a school board president in Texas — testified for the prosecution.
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Old November 1, 2010, 11:01 AM   #16
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Near my hometown the police are paid better on average than all other government workers except finance administrators (accountants and financial planners). Guiliani for all his faults proved credibly that more stringent law enforcement will lead to lower crime.
It's not possible! Time and time again Police are on scene after the crime is commited and once the criminal(s) is caught, they have to go through the "innocent until proven guilty" rat race of politics and law, before getting a sentence; therefore leaving opportunity for parol, and future violence.

Arm a citizen, stop a crime (should be a new organization )
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Old November 1, 2010, 11:11 AM   #17
stephen426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
I am an optimist and disagree a bit. I believe that criminals are criminals for all kinds of reasons. For example they might lack an ethical moral center or be raised in a culture that mandates violence and criminal activity for success. Strangely what has been shown is that all kinds of people without a strong moral center are willing to commit a crime for a small reward if they think that they can get away with it, so many are criminals of opportunity.

What I have noticed is that criminal activity is less in areas where people have better education and opportunities, this is indisputable. It seems to follow that there are at least some environmental causes. Feel free to disagree, it does not hurt my feelings any.
I agree with you on the bolded points, but take a look at gangs like MS13. They are transforming from the "typical street gang" to organized crime. Their recruitment is very strong and is spreading across the US. They recruit in schools and colleges and are really developing an organized structure. Like I said, you can nust your hump to make an honest living, but those with poor moral character prefer the "faster and easier" approach... Kust take it from someone else!

As for my apparant blood lust, I may have come off as too harsh. You can't "educate" your way out of a gang encounter. Most of these guys have no respect for their own lives and they certainly have much less respect for you life. In the article, a fellow gang member was shot just for showing compassion for one of their own gang members! If you were able to poll gang members, I'm sure most of them have little to no fear of arrest. Many of them would be somewhat safe in prison due to protection from other gang members already locked up. I'm sure most of them don't even fear for their own life.

I certainly hope your way works, but just in case, I'll keep my guns on the ready.
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Old November 1, 2010, 12:09 PM   #18
MTT TL
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I certainly hope your way works, but just in case, I'll keep my guns on the ready.
I don't disallow violence when needed. I would just try to make it not come to that first.
Quote:
I'm sorry but education and better "options" don't seem to really work to well.
Sure they do. Pick any neighborhood in the country and I guarantee that the crime rate will be correlate nicely with the level and quality of education in the community and employment rate.

What I can't guarantee is what people do with the opportunity. As I said earlier people commit crimes for all kinds of reasons, people just tend to commit less of them if they have something else to do with their life.

Quote:
It's not possible! Time and time again Police are on scene after the crime is commited and once the criminal(s) is caught, they have to go through the "innocent until proven guilty" rat race of politics and law, before getting a sentence; therefore leaving opportunity for parol, and future violence.
You seem to be making a case that it is impossible to send people to jail. Since the US has the world's second largest prison population I will simply disagree. People go to prison all the time.
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Old November 1, 2010, 12:20 PM   #19
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You seem to be making a case that it is impossible to send people to jail. Since the US has the world's second largest prison population I will simply disagree. People go to prison all the time.
My point is; there are more people in prison that one can shake a stick at, and we have "human rights" organizations that come and try to help criminals by passing laws for them to be treated as babies-I know this because my brother is a deputy and ex corrections officer.

Prison doesn't help crime if you have criminals getting parol, flat screen Tv's and their phone call every day (probably calls to other gang members).

...Arm every citizen in crimeville and you'll have no more crime.

And my post never said anything about it being impossible for criminals to go to jail! I said prison doesn't fix crime; It just creates a quarantine house for it.
I over-heard a police officer's conversation the other day and he was saying that prison's don't have any room left for criminals. They're outsourcing to other locations now just to find vacancy for the BG's.
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Old November 1, 2010, 02:18 PM   #20
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I can think of plenty of places that have large handgun ownership, but still have large crime rates. Perhaps guns cant solve crime any more than guns cause crime? They can certainly stop a crime from happening to you though, which is why all who are serious about personal safety should carry...

Better education would certainly help the most in my opinion, but unfortunately we have inefficient schools and parents who don't care...
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Old November 1, 2010, 02:27 PM   #21
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Not a tactics discussion anymore.

Closed.
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