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Old October 5, 2010, 11:42 AM   #101
Rifleman 173
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If you have to draw your weapon, use it. Do not draw a weapon unless you actually plan or need to use it. When you draw your weapon, plan to use multiple shots against your attacker. My personal favorite is 1 or 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head. This pattern is called the Mozambique Shooting Scenario. It works well against doped up or liquored up scumbags. Make your shots count because you probably will not have excessive amounts of ammo on your person. Always plan to engage the next bad guy because there is always one more out there somewhere. If you drop 2 bad guys, don't make the assumption that there were only 2 of them. Expect to meet up with the third bad guy so that you'll be ready if he does pop up. Don't relax your guard until you are completely out of the danger zone and back home. Once you make it back home, be leery and stay armed. Remember to reload for your fired rounds as soon as you can. And remember that more than likely the firearms you used to defend yourself will probably be confiscated by the police for evidence so be ready for this with replacement arms as needed. You will probably get your firearms back from the police - via legal action or through your attorney - but it may take some time.
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Old October 6, 2010, 07:10 PM   #102
JimL
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Quote:
If you have to draw your weapon, use it.
Sorry but I think that is too simplistic. I would totally agree if you said, if you draw your gun be completely of a state of mind _to_ use it. And I intend that to mean within milliseconds if necessary and if unnecessary, not at all.

"It all depends." Firstly, your "method" means you MUST be a very fast draw, because you would be leaving your gun holstered until the very last split second. If the BG happens to be a faster draw you're duck soup. I'll draw early and keep my trigger finger ready to go, thereby being probably seconds ahead of the curve.

Secondly, your public statement clearly says that you always shoot to kill. An attorney against you will make much of your "vicious killer attitude" to the jury. And I mean that not as truth but as simply factual points about what vicious killer lawyers will say and do in court. Making a case for "shooting to stop" is much more defensible. They are professional word twisters without a modicum of concern for actual true facts.

PLEASE NOTE!!

I am not even coming close to saying you should never shoot instantly or never shoot to kill. So please don't accuse me of that. But there _are_ degrees of necessity and logic in all situations. I'm only saying you shouldn't _always_ wait to draw/kill, because it can invite disaster by killing time instead of killing BGs. I'm saying always draw instantly and beat the clock. Then decide "shoot or not" during the draw, based on conditions.

I don't know your personal habits, but there are some who would declare that this post attacks them and get all vicious about it. Disagreeing without being disagreeable is something of an art. Grasping that is even more of an art.
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Old October 6, 2010, 07:18 PM   #103
Sefner
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I agree with Jim here. If a firearm is pulled and the BG runs away, situation solved, firearm goes back in the holster and I still have my rounds (45 JHP is expensive). That is the best possible outcome of that situation and no rounds were fired. I don't think that "draw to kill" is a very good philosophy. I can see the argument but I just don't ever see it working.
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Old October 7, 2010, 07:03 AM   #104
BillCA
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I'll add that I agree with JimL on this one. Massad Ayoob alluded to this when he said that we should not wait until the only response we have is to shoot the SOB. Being prepared and unholstering when the situation starts to circle the drain could save everyone a lot of grief, pain and treasure.

I've emphasized the "shoot to stop" mindset here. If I can avoid having to fire the gun at all, it'll be a relief and a positive outcome. Somewhere out there will be a BG saying to his buddies how some old guy he was about to bag "pulled a piece on me" and he barely got away. Good deterrent advertising.

If, on the other hand, I'm forced to shoot, I want to shoot first, shoot the least and make the most effective hits to stop the threat. If he goes down after one shot, great. If not, we lather, rinse, repeat until success is achieved or I have to use the gun as a sap.
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Old October 19, 2010, 12:56 PM   #105
Double J
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Lots to consider. The original post doesn't say the reason to be in a position to be pointing a weapon on the BG. Very possible the BG isn't armed. How many of his friends have you also got the drop on? Here, we are very limited as to when we can resort to deadly force. Just not enough description to make a call. Shooting an unarmed BG and no witnesses to verify self defense could fall the wrong way. A bullet is the last resort.
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Old October 19, 2010, 07:29 PM   #106
BillCA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double J
Lots to consider. The original post doesn't say the reason to be in a position to be pointing a weapon on the BG. Very possible the BG isn't armed. How many of his friends have you also got the drop on? Here, we are very limited as to when we can resort to deadly force. Just not enough description to make a call. Shooting an unarmed BG and no witnesses to verify self defense could fall the wrong way. A bullet is the last resort.
As the OP said in his post, you have the Bad Guy™ at gunpoint. He is the bad guy, there's no question about it. He's done the wrong deed - entered your home unlawfully, attempted to rob you with a blade, whatever. Now, for the time being, you have control of the situation with him squarely in your sights. Now what do you do?

Me? I have L.E. training and I could prone the guy out and hold him for the PD. But thinking deeper, I'm not up on the current dodges felons have for getting the upper hand. I do know that he may hide his weapon in the hood of his sweatshirt so "hands on your head" may not be safe. This is why I'd tell the guy to march straight out the door (or climb back out the window) pronto. Once outside, he can flee and I'll hope that a description is broadcast for the PD to spot him and pick him up. This way, I have almost no liability, no incipient danger to me and everyone lives another day.

When you start saying "what if..." to every response, it can get silly. Like "What if he's a plain clothes cop who crawled in the window after seeing the original BG do it?" or "What if the guy is some important Zeta Cartel member hiding from cops in your house and you bring down the wrath of the cartel?" Well then... your life gets... complicated.
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Old October 20, 2010, 11:32 AM   #107
Stevie-Ray
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If a firearm is pulled and the BG runs away, situation solved, firearm goes back in the holster and I still have my rounds (45 JHP is expensive). That is the best possible outcome of that situation and no rounds were fired.
That's my way of thinking in a nutshell. I've never gotten the "if I'm drawing, I'm firing" crowd.
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Old October 20, 2010, 02:37 PM   #108
markj
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As the OP said in his post, you have the Bad Guy™ at gunpoint. He is the bad guy, there's no question about it. He's done the wrong deed - entered your home unlawfully, attempted to rob you with a blade, whatever. Now, for the time being, you have control of the situation with him squarely in your sights. Now what do you do?
If he runs away I will let him, I wont try to keep him there until cops come. That may be viewed as a form of kidnapping (Life in prison in Iowa) or restraint. If he comes at me with the blade he will get hurt. If he drops the blade, covers his head and crys for mommy I will keep him covered until he either leaves or the cop gets here. Why shoot just cause?

I do not relish the idea of taking another humans life. It isnt even on my list and will never be.
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Old October 21, 2010, 09:23 PM   #109
Naterstein
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I have to agree with Mas Ayoob and some of the other posters about having the choice to pull your weapon without actually firing it if it isn't actually necessary (ie BG running away). I believe Mas said, in one of his books, that you will probably want to be the first to dial 911 if that occurs.

Sounds like good advice to me. Just hope that if that day comes for me, I have the courage, wit, and speed to win/survive.
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Old October 23, 2010, 02:30 AM   #110
sigxder
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When I was a young man I did quite a bit of security work. We were taught in class that 85% of the time when you produce a gun the bad guy stops whatever they are doing. I had to draw my gun several times over those early years. All of them stopped doing the bad things they were doing as soon as the gun was pointing at them. One who was trying to kill his wife hit the ground and started crying. We were told the 15% that didn't stop were crazy and/or probably drugged. Then you really needed to shoot.
If you hold someone at gunpoint have them get on their knees with legs crossed. Hands behind their head. Don't get close to them if you can avoid it. Don't allow them to talk. They are trying to get you off guard. When I had the incident with the man trying to kill his wife I was in an apartment complex. After she was safe in an apartment I told some neighbors to call the police. Tell them the guy with the gun was the good guy. When they came in a put my gun down and stepped back.
They took the guy away. Still crying they had to drag him like a baby. Lesson learned a couple of days latter after she got out of the hospital the first thing she did was post his bail. I didn't know they were man and wife. She tried to thank me later. I told her if she went back to him she deserved whatever she got. I wouldn't risk my life for her's anymore. Had some friends ended up in court for saving a ife from her husband. I think the big thing is to have a mind set that you will shoot if you have to. They knew by the look on my face I would have. That is what made the gun a danger to them. Hopefully you'll never have to go throught something like this. He was after his wife with a big butcher knife. We didn't know about the Tuller drill then.
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