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Old October 18, 2010, 01:11 PM   #1
Amin Parker
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Gun show laws

Hi all.

I often read about you guys going to a gun show and coming home with a handgun. I just need to get this straight, you go to a show, see someone selling a Colt Python, hand over cash and he hands over gun. The gun is then yours as per rules of legal ownership.

Where i live you have to wait up to 3 years for a licence. You also need a licence for each and every gun you own.

What are the rules for rifles and shotguns?
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Old October 18, 2010, 01:13 PM   #2
Delaware_Dan
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Where do you live?
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Old October 18, 2010, 01:28 PM   #3
Amin Parker
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South Africa.

You even need to produce your licence when buying ammo. You may only buy what you are licenced to own and you may not own more than 200 rounds per calibre unless you are a dedicated sports shooter.

Owning a semi rifle is one of the hardest things to get
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Old October 18, 2010, 01:46 PM   #4
Don H
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I often read about you guys going to a gun show and coming home with a handgun. I just need to get this straight, you go to a show, see someone selling a Colt Python, hand over cash and he hands over gun. The gun is then yours as per rules of legal ownership. Yes, that is the legal procedure in this state unless the seller is an FFL. This is a valid procedure even if one is not at a gun show; I can legally walk next door and buy a firearm from my neighbor by handing him money and he hands me the gun. End of transaction.

Where i live you have to wait up to 3 years for a licence. You also need a licence for each and every gun you own. No license required.

What are the rules for rifles and shotguns? The same as for handguns.

Disclaimer:Generally, firearms cannot be legally transferred across state lines without involving an FFL. One cannot legally sell a firearm to a person that one knows is ineligible to purchase a firearm. This is a simplification but should be adequate for the purposes of this specific discussion.
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Old October 18, 2010, 02:24 PM   #5
carguychris
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US gun laws in a nutshell

Quote:
Disclaimer:Generally, firearms cannot be legally transferred across state lines without involving an FFL.
For the benefit of the OP, since he's from another country:

FFL = Federal Firearms License, a federally-required license allowing the holder to conduct business across state lines. The U.S. Constitution gives the federal government the power to regulate interstate commerce. Due to some (controversial) court decisions that are beyond the scope of this discussion, this power has been extended to allow regulation of many transactions that take place entirely within a single state, so a FFL is always required to conduct business selling firearms in the USA (see below for more detail). FFLs are overseen by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, often abbreviated as "BATFE" or simply "ATF".

There are various types of FFLs granted overseen by the BATFE, but the most commonly discussed types are the 01 "Dealer" license and the 03 "Curio & Relic" or "Collector" license. In short, the Dealer license allows businesses to sell firearms commercially, while the C&R license is given to individuals to allow them to buy and sell old, historical, and/or rare firearms out of state, including by mail order, but it does not grant any special privileges to buy and sell most modern commercially-offered firearms.

Dealer FFLs are required to conduct background checks on all buyers, whether the transaction takes place at a gun show or elsewhere. This involves collecting a form from the buyer, known as a Form 4473, certifying that he/she is legally eligible to buy the gun.

Nonlicensees- those without an FFL- and C&R licensees are not generally required to conduct background checks or collect Form 4473s. However, nonlicensees and licensed collectors are also prohibited from conducting business selling firearms, i.e. doing it for profit rather than as a hobby. Conducting business without a license is a federal crime. The problem is figuring out where the line is drawn.

OTOH individual states are allowed regulate transactions within the state's borders and may have requirements in excess of federal regulations. Some states take this pretty far, requiring licenses, gun registration, and/or background checks for all sales. Other states are fairly easygoing; for instance, TX law bars sales to anyone who is visibly intoxicated, under the age of 18, or the subject of a protective order, but face-to-face sales between individuals are otherwise allowed under most circumstances.
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Last edited by carguychris; October 18, 2010 at 02:43 PM. Reason: to --> between
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Old October 18, 2010, 02:25 PM   #6
Pahoo
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Amin
What you have described on some of our purchases, is true and yes, it can go that way. However, I and several others that I know, don't work this way. Every state is somewhat different but for our state and if it's a handgun, I do not sell to anyone that does not have a permit to buy. I note their name, address and their permit number. There have been a few buyers that have refused to deal in this manner and that's perfectly fine with me and I thank them for their time. I don't have any but if I did, I would only sell a Black-Gun, through an FFL dealer and I pay the cost of that transaction.

Now, if it's a rifle or shotgun, I only get his name. If it's an M/L, all I need, is the cash. ....
Understand that this is my personal requirements to myself and oh yes, there is no Gun Show loophole !! ....

What I or others do on private sales, has no affiliation with the Gun Show of it's promoter. To make that connection is wrong. ...


Be Safe !!!

Last edited by Pahoo; October 18, 2010 at 02:33 PM.
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Old October 18, 2010, 02:38 PM   #7
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Yep.... in this state, that's exactly what happens, except you missed some critical points ..... you also have to show you are who you say you are, and the FFL (Fedl Firearms Licensed dealer) does a NICS check on you that checks you are legal to own the gun, have not criminal background, etc.

So, what does getting and having to have a license for this gun, that gun, etc. do for anyone ? What does waiting 3 days do for anyone ? Nothing at all. It's a joke.. that's all it is. The locals or state only checks the NICS systems and same background, they only do a lot of paperwork that's useless and charge you for all of it to get some money out of the deal.

So, the REAL ANSWER to your question is .... NO ! ! ! NOT just ANYONE, can walk in and buy a gun and walk out the door.
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Old October 18, 2010, 02:43 PM   #8
hagar
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Ja, ons koop die goed hier soos brood en botter!

I know where you are coming from, I left SA 26 years ago (temporarily I thought..), and since moving to the US I just cannot stop buying the darn things. There are some states in the US where they have a permit system or waiting period on handguns and/or long arms, but in most free states you can buy or sell a firearm from/to a resident of your state with little restriction. If you pass the instant NICS check or have a concealed weapons permit, you can also buy from a ffl dealer and walk out with it right now, or buy a firearm from a private individual and have it shipped to a dealer. There is no restriction on AR15 uppers or any kind of barrels, the receiver is considered the only registered part here. Same goes for primers and powders, you normally only need to provide a copy of your drivers license so they can verify your age.

Personally when I sell a gun face to face, I'd like to know where and to who it is going. If you are an NRA member, or have a ccw, or been hanging out at the same forums I do for a while, no problem. Seen too many gangbangers in AZ buying every AK and SKS they could get their hands on from private individuals at gunshows, and whether it was legal to sell it to them or not, it was wrong.
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Old October 18, 2010, 02:51 PM   #9
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Amin, in most states over here there is no limit on the amount of ammunition you can have, and you can buy it over the counter in supermarkets like Walmart, no questions asked. You have to show ID to prove you're over 21 if it's handgun ammo, but that's about it.

Also, while buying guns from licensed dealers (FFLs) normally involves a background check, there are easier ways:

-if you have a concealed carry permit (aka "CCW"), many states allow the dealer to waive the background check, since you would have had to do that to get the permit in the first place. This can speed things up, especially for those unlucky few who get delayed in their background checks regularly.

-you can get a special collector's license, known as a Curio & Relic license (C&R for short) that essentially removes the interstate restrictions on firearms, including handguns, if they are categorized as curio & relics. This includes most guns that are more than 50 years old. Once you have the license, you can have them mailed straight to your door!

-black powder and antique (pre-1898) guns are more or less outside of federal law altogether. These guns can be bought & sold interstate by anyone - even as a business, with literally no paperwork, as long as there are no state level restrictions.

EDIT: Also, unlike most countries, the background check does not take account of the details of the firearm you're buying. They are told by the dealer whether it's a handgun or "long gun", and that's it. So an AR-15, or a Barret .50BMG is literally as easy to buy as a .22LR! (assuming you don't care about the cost that is). They are not told whether it's semi-auto, has a pistol grip, collapsible stock etc.
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Old October 18, 2010, 03:28 PM   #10
Amin Parker
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Hagar

Met die nuwe wet gaan dit maar swaar.

Sjoe it must be crazy just being able to buy guns. I have 25 now, imagine if i lived over there, i will go nuts.

Where in SA were u staying? Im in Somerset West, near Cape Town
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Old October 18, 2010, 06:25 PM   #11
EarlFH
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In Montana, if you have a carry license, there is no background check needed. if it's from a private owner, nothing is required except cash.
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Old October 18, 2010, 08:24 PM   #12
FoxtrotRomeo
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Quote:
I often read about you guys going to a gun show and coming home with a handgun. I just need to get this straight, you go to a show, see someone selling a Colt Python, hand over cash and he hands over gun. The gun is then yours as per rules of legal ownership.
Yup that's the way it works. Some guys try to makes sure they don't sell it to the wrong person. In that case, though it is not needed, a carry permit helps. When they see the carry permit they're ready to sell because it's proof that you're probably not a thug or a psycho.

Quote:
Where i live you have to wait up to 3 years for a licence. You also need a licence for each and every gun you own.
Not in my state. While you need a permit to carry a handgun in this state, you are not required to own a license for every firearm you own. Permits only take a maximum of 90 days, mine came in about 20 to 25 days (must not have had much paperwork lately).

Quote:
What are the rules for rifles and shotguns?
In my state you are required to be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun and at least 18 years of age to buy a rifle or a shotgun.

Quote:
You may only buy what you are licenced to own and you may not own more than 200 rounds per calibre unless you are a dedicated sports shooter.
Not here. You may own about as much as you feel like you can buy or can afford. I have about a 1000 rounds of 5.45x39mm alone right now. Spam cans are great.

Quote:
Owning a semi rifle is one of the hardest things to get
In this state I can drive for about 30 minutes and show you a whole rack of them. All for sale with only 5 minutes of paperwork if you meet the simple requirements. Coarse that's at a dealer.
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Old October 18, 2010, 08:27 PM   #13
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You are not doing bad at all with 25!

I'm from the Pretoria area. Never been to the Cape province (except Kimberley) till I lived in the US. Got married to my 2nd American wife in Worcester in 1998. Might still come retire in the Cape Town area, but probably not with the current gun laws.
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Old October 19, 2010, 11:02 PM   #14
chris in va
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The 'antis' like to call it the 'Gun Show Loophole' and would dearly love to end the practice. In reality it's absolutely no different than buying one outside the gun show face-to-face, just happens to be a more friendly place to do it.
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Old October 20, 2010, 05:41 AM   #15
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It has to do with our constitution and how the laws of our country still sort of kind of work....

The federal government of the U.S. can in theory only regulate inter state commerce.... as in items that move from state to state. So, in theory I can sell or buy from a fellow resident of my state and the feds can't do anything about it. My state's laws apply... and oddly enough they are vastly different from state to state here...

Example: In South Carolina to buy a handgun from another person all I have to do is give them the cash.... now this is only legal if both of us can legally own the gun... but that's all it takes. At gun shows there will be lots of folks who have bought a table and are displaying guns and selling 'privately'.

But in North Carolina to buy a handgun even in a private sale one must have a permit from the county sheriff, unless the buyer has a concealed carry permit... which he or she also gets from the county sheriff. This is left over from the days when the folks in power did not want black people owning guns.

There are also gun dealers (FFLs) at these shows and the rules for buying from them are the same as if you went to their store.... government form and back ground check depending on which state you are in.

the down side is there are little to no deals at these gun shows... practically everything you buy from an individual will be used to one degree or another and the cost will usually be $50-$100 more than if you bought the same used gun from a store.
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Old October 20, 2010, 07:51 AM   #16
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At the Tulsa show I was told since I was not a resident of OK, the dealer could not sell me the pistol. I asked if he was an FFL and he said no but the ATF, at the show, had told him not to sell to other than OK residents. I challenged that and asked him to go to the ATF table with me but he refused. I went over and talked to an agent who said "He is doing it the way we think it should be done" bud admitted that he was free to "dispose of his personal collection in any way he chose. They did not bother to point this out to the guys with tables. I consider this a major problem.
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Old October 20, 2010, 08:25 AM   #17
divil
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Quote:
I was told since I was not a resident of OK, the dealer could not sell me the pistol. I asked if he was an FFL and he said no but the ATF, at the show, had told him not to sell to other than OK residents
The seller and the ATF were right. You cannot legally sell a pistol to a resident of another state.
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Old October 20, 2010, 08:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
I often read about you guys going to a gun show and coming home with a handgun. I just need to get this straight, you go to a show, see someone selling a Colt Python, hand over cash and he hands over gun. The gun is then yours as per rules of legal ownership.
There are private people selling guns at gun shows and licensed dealers. Where I live, I can walk into a gun show, buy a handgun from a private person - pay cash, and walk out with the gun, so long as I'm 21 or older. If I am 18 or older, I can buy any rifle or shotgun (excpet full-auto, short barreled and some other restricted stuff) and walk out with it.

If I buy a handgun from a licensed dealer, then the dealer will run an instant background check (takes about 15 minutes over the phone) to make sure that I am not a criminal or someone who has had their rights taken away (i.e. former criminal, reported wife beater, etc.) and then I have to wait 3 days (cooling off period) to pick up the gun. If I have a carry permit, then I don't have to wait the 3 days and after the background check, I can walk out with the gun.
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Old October 20, 2010, 10:14 AM   #19
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Amin
For this reply, I'm going to leave Gun Shows out of the conversation but only to perhaps, make a point. In your country, do you have garage sales, flea-markets, estate sales and auctions, where Private Sales are conducted? We do and often times, you wil have the opertunity to purchase firearms, including handguns. In some cities, you may see listing of firearms for sale, in the classified sections of the newspaper. All are perfectly legal within the laws of the city, county and state.

There are also Private Sales between gun guys and we trade back and forth all the time. Might add that all or most trasactions are documented but they are personal records.

My point is that none of these activities has anything to do with Gun Shows. ...

Be Safe !!!

Last edited by Pahoo; October 20, 2010 at 10:45 AM.
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Old October 20, 2010, 10:18 AM   #20
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No such thing as garage sales in SA, even for non firearm iems. Just never caught on there. From what I remember, and it may have changed, if you sell a firearm to a private person, you hang on to it till the new buyer gets his license, or if you do it through a dealer, the dealer takes possession.
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Old October 20, 2010, 12:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
if you sell a firearm to a private person, you hang on to it till the new buyer gets his license, or if you do it through a dealer, the dealer takes possession.
This is similar (not exactly the same) that we do with transfers of full-auto machineguns, silencers, and a few other types of NFA regulated guns. Most states here in the US (exceptions: some of the northeastern states, northern-midwestern states and California) are as I described earlier - not much red tape involved in buying or selling a gun.
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