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Old October 15, 2010, 10:24 AM   #26
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesheepdog
I am more likely to get sued using a weapon than physical force-even if I am completely in line with the law-take the BG's own gun from him and use it against him; perfect scenario of true and lawful self defense.

No you're not. Deadly force is deadly force. There is no difference legally between shooting a man between the eyes, breaking his neck or shooting him with his gun or yours.


The problem with all this "I'm just going to learn karate." business is that it takes 20 years to be proficient enough to use it as an actual defense. Been there, done that. It's not a 1 year, 2 year, 5 year or 10 year thing. Every true "master" of some form of martial arts that I have spoken to agrees with me. From the 8th degree black belt to the guy that hold black belts in 3 or 4 (maybe more) different forms/styles. It's pretty well accepted that it's 15+ years before you are truly formidable in an open environment without rules. Kicking some other karate guys butt in a tournament is entirely different than the life-or-death "game" out on the street.
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Old October 15, 2010, 10:50 AM   #27
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I'd be willing to give some things I've only read about a shot if it was my last line of defense. Better to die trying than not at all. The point is I'd like to be as safe as possible, I'm rather proficient at knife fighting but I'm not going to carry a knife as my only tool of defense. A handgun is the most lethal thing I can legally carry so I'm going to do that over learning all sorts of martial arts.
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Old October 15, 2010, 10:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
The problem with all this "I'm just going to learn karate." business is that it takes 20 years to be proficient enough to use it as an actual defense
Yeah that's Karate not Combat Martial arts.

Now with Krav Maga, Combat Hapkido, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and Jeet Kun Do, you're learning to defend yourself, rather than practicing with ritual weapons and moves. In a "no rules" environment. You focus on defending yourself in real world applications.

Krav Maga is taught to the CIA, and many other Private Security organizations, to defend themselves while they're out in dangerous territory.
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Old October 15, 2010, 10:52 AM   #29
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Yes and no, PK...

Hey, PK, as usual, I find myself mostly agreeing with you.

But, as often happens, I don't agree, entirely.

I've mentioned this before, but I have a buddy who's a narcotics detective. His unit does street-level stuff, in plainclothes, making drug buys. He's very often in close quarters with dealers.

He's had guns pulled on him on several occasions, at very close ranges.

He has yet to try to pull his pistol from concealment. Instead, he's applied some pretty devastating jujutsu, breaking at least two BG's arms, and disarming each. Trick is, he sees them start the draw, and he immediately closes any distance - or that's how it has gone, so far.

He hasn't been training for 20 years. More than 10, yes. 20, no.

I know a Corrections Officer who was attacked by a shiv-wielding inmate, once. The CO had no idea what to do, and froze like a deer in the headlights. He got stabbed in the shoulder, and other CO's came to the rescue.

At that point, the CO decided he'd better improve his H2H skills.

After 6 months at the Florida dojo where I started my aikido training, the CO was attacked by another inmate. In this case, the inmate was wielding a bush axe (my CO friend was supervising a road crew; the attacker was a trustee - go figure).

The CO did not freeze; instead, he stepped inside the arc of the attack (so if he'd been hit, it would have been by the wooden shaft and not the metal blade) and executed a turning weapon-takeaway / throw that we used to practice with against bokken (wooden training version of a katana). He apparently executed it pretty well, because he ended up in possession of the bush axe, and the inmate went flying over the CO's hip, landed on his head, and was knocked out.

Again, the CO had 6 months of training at that point.

Would most people be able to defend themselves adequately with 6 months' training? Probably not. One thing the CO brought to training that worked in his favor was a very serious training mindset - he'd been stabbed already, and he worked hard to prevent that from recurring.

My last point would be that, even if it were to take 20 years before you could really defend yourself well - that just means there's no time like the present to start learning.
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Old October 15, 2010, 11:48 AM   #30
Brian Pfleuger
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MLeake,

I think we're in pretty good agreement.

It may not be "20" years, but it's certainly 10+ in almost all cases.

Your CO friend, even though it was only 6 months of H2H training since he was attacked, also had significant training previously. He chose to "improve" his skills and, I suspect, the second outcome had more to do with choosing to act and/or stress/fear inoculation than actually an improved skill set. That's not to say that he hadn't improved but, quite often, doing ANYTHING is safer than doing nothing.


I also agree that today is a good day to start training, should someone be so inclined.


Sheepdog,

I use "karate" as a generic term. Yes, any of these skill sets can be helpful. Intense and regular training is a good thing. I think these statements should be qualified though. No one is going to take some H2H class on Tuesdays and Thursdays for an hour and a half and think that 2 months later they're going to kick the crap out of some dude that pulls a gun on them out on the street.

Yes, you can learn things in ONE class that can be helpful. Particularly, there are training classes geared for women to learn to defend themselves on the street that are very short and have been proven to be helpful.

However, there's a big, BIG gap between "I'm going to take some classes to improve my chances." and "I'd just whack him there, grab him here and shoot him with his own gun.", as if it's a 10 hour course and everything always goes your way.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; October 15, 2010 at 12:06 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old October 15, 2010, 11:59 AM   #31
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Quote:
Sheepdog,

I use "karate" as a generic term. Yes, any of these skill sets can be helpful. Intense and regular training is a good thing. I think these statements should be qualified though. No one is going to take some H2H class on Tuesdays and Thursdays for an hour and a half and think that 2 months later their going to kick the crap out of some dude that pulls a gun on them out on the street.

Yes, you can learn things in ONE class that can be helpful. Particularly, there are training classes geared for women to learn to defend themselves on the street that are very short and have been proven to be helpful.

However, there's a big, BIG gap between "I'm going to take some classes to improve my chances." and "I'd just whack him there, grab him here and shoot him with his own gun.", as if it's a 10 hour course and everything always goes your way.
Peetzakilla,

I know what you're saying, but as far as "one not being able to defend themselves after 2 months of training" is somewhat of an undertestimation of the human's motives.

You'd actually be very surpised how your chances of defending yourself actually go up, after just a few self defense classes. Given, it's not to say that we're 100% when the threat comes to us, but we stand a better chance now, than we did previously.

It's a mindset, not just a skill. It's determination and motive that can help you defend yourself from harm. If you firstly apply the rule of "no rules" when someone tries to hurt you, plus the training you already have, you've got some excellent chances of defeating the threat.

It's plain and simple.
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Old October 15, 2010, 12:07 PM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
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Yeah, I can buy that. I think we're pretty much on the same page.
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Old October 15, 2010, 02:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
I was just explaining one of the many reasons why people attack people who talk about using martial arts to defend themselves in the internet. It isn't as though no one uses martial arts.
Martial arts is learning how to fight, same as boxing with the exception of feet. BTDT, I started with Judo, taught me how to land if knocked down so I dont get hurt, also great holds and a couple moves could cause death in the opponent, then onto tae kwon do learned how to move, was boxing since 8 a family thing. Even with all of this I would hesitate moving on anyone that is behind me with a gun at my back. Is kinda how I got shot in my left shoulder years ago. Course at the time we didnt fight in the streets with guns, guys had a problem would meet up in the park and have a go at it.
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Old October 15, 2010, 03:12 PM   #34
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For educational purposes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M9iL...=26&feature=BF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zypED...ext=1&index=12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_S9V...=20&feature=BF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLrQU...=18&feature=BF
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Old October 15, 2010, 03:46 PM   #35
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...I would have begun talking to the BG, spun around, put his shooting arm in an arm-bar, broken his arm, then a knee to the face. That's what I would do.
Somebody has been watching way too much television.

Me............I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why they feel the need to leave the gun in the house cause he's afraid it will get wet.
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Old October 15, 2010, 03:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Somebody has been watching way too much television.
Kraigwy,

I actually practice that move every week. I also don't even own a TV.
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Old October 16, 2010, 08:48 AM   #37
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I am going to have to back up sheepdog on this. 22 years ago when I joined the military they gave us half a day of HTH combat which was kind of a motivational training bad joke.

My how times have changed.

These days some units regularly practice combatives and MMA with qualified instructors. After just a few weeks of training even the most ineffective fighters can mop the mats with and choke out someone untrained. Learn and practice some basic and advanced moves, maintain a high level of physical fitness and discipline and you are world's ahead of any untrained fighter on the street, even when the bad guys don't fight fair. Combatives is all about and for "cheating", the only unfair fight is the one you lose.

Would I rather have a gun? Hell yes. But does it mean I am helpless if I don't? Hell no. This isn't for everyone, as several have pointed out not everyone is capable or willing to perform physically. That is too bad, it is one less tool in the tool box for them.

I don't know a thing about Karate, Ju jitsu or any of that other stuff. I hear you do a lot of exercise, practice making some motions and then play fight at half speed or something like that... honestly it is just what I hear because I don't know. Most of the training I have done is full speed stuff with guys my size (pretty big). Tapping out is part of the training but sometimes guys have too much pride to tap out so they go under. Sometimes people break things. That is about as real as it gets. Anyone who thinks it is ineffective is welcome to come over for a few hours to get the idea. This is not professional wrestling, it is the real deal.

It all goes to training and mindset. If you believe it to be impossible, than you will be in for a nasty surprise some day. The day the bad guy takes your gun away from you that is.
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Old October 16, 2010, 11:34 AM   #38
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Some of us haven’t trained in karate, jujitsu, tae kwan do, hee hang hie, or chow mein goo pah. When we meet King Kong we buy him a beer and ask to see pictures of his kids.

Perhaps some persons can move five feet, break a guy’s arm, and put him on the ground before he can move his finger a half inch, but most of us cannot.

If I’m facing a drawn gun I’ll not just let the guy have the TV, I’ll carry it to my truck for him. Then tell him the truck will soon need an oil change, on cold mornings it’s hard to start, and the passenger side window won’t go all the way down.

Reality is a bothersome thing.
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Old October 16, 2010, 01:15 PM   #39
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So does anyone notice that the guy in the story didn't get shot?

In fact he did the right thing, even if he had been carrying.

Give the guy your stuff and let him go.
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Old October 16, 2010, 03:13 PM   #40
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Quote:
So does anyone notice that the guy in the story didn't get shot?
Does anyone notice in the story the guy didn't have a clue? He was totally unaware and unprepared for what happened. The perp could just as easily have killed him and his family (had they been in the house) as not. He was just lucky. The dice were rolled and his number never came up this time.

The thing to learn from the OP is that one needs to be aware and prepared ALL the time, especially when one is at home. If you are a husband and/or a father, it is YOUR responsibility to be on guard for dangerous or deadly circumstances and to keep your family safe. Anything less, IMHO, on your part, is negligence.
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Old October 17, 2010, 12:29 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bill
If you are a husband and/or a father, it is YOUR responsibility to be on guard for dangerous or deadly circumstances and to keep your family safe. Anything less, IMHO, on your part, is negligence.
Amen, brother.
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Old October 17, 2010, 12:48 AM   #42
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ClayinTX...

... I think that for some of us, at least, the last decade has changed outlooks on when to surrender.

When one's job requires one to spend time in proximity with people who like decapitating prisoners on video and the net, one spends a lot of time thinking about whether one should EVER surrender.

That mindset can leach over at home a bit... but it's there for a reason.

So I train against guys with practice guns. But every so often I also train against a partner who is using a live blade.

Scary thing is, I can take it from him. (Granted, we are trying to avoid getting cut, so the speed is taken down a notch, but the techniques still work like they should.... also, I've found that with the open-hand stuff, going to full speed just makes the guy fall that much harder; this has also proven true when using club-type weapons, with which we go quite a bit faster than with blades.)
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Old October 17, 2010, 01:23 AM   #43
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I'm no ninja but I agree with the others who has said, "I'll fight him the best I can to prevent him getting me into the house or die trying."

I guess if you can read the mind of an armed criminal to know all he wants is your TV then fine let him have it. I would certainly not fight him if he had the drop on me and just wanted what was on my person or in the truck. But as soon as he wants to move me into the house, a car, or other secluded place then the equation has taken a bad turn.

As already pointed out, once inside he can kill you, tortue you, or both and then wait for a wife, kids or whatever to show up and have more fun with them.

I haven't faced anything like this but I suspect a killer wouldn't announce, "Let's go inside so I can whack you in private." He would probably try some less threatening approach like, "Let's go inside, all I want is your TV."

It's a gamble either way. Personally I would rather risk a fight in public even if I ended up losing. At least he would probably then run away and my family whether present or returning later would be safer. If I comply and go inside without a struggle then I am betting the farm on his good intentions, the good intentions of an armed criminal.

The other points:
- There are plenty of handguns mostly impervious to moisture, especially if you clean them after a dunking of sweat or water. One reason I prefer Glocks. Even blued guns will be fine if you clean them up right away, but that is a hassle of they are exposed to moisture frequently.

- I don't let people stay on my property unless invited. No solicitors, etc. If they are not family, friend or neighbor they don't have any business on my land. Anyone who refuses to leave after a firm statement I am not interested and thy should depart immediately is an escalation of risk. As a youth I did some soliciting and I think any reasonable person of good intent would leave pronto if specifically asked to do so. Someone who persists is up to no good (maybe not violence but certainly to take advantage of me). If they are in a hurry and need help I will call 911 and go behind them on alert to see what is wrong (dog chewing a kid, etc.).

Glad the situation worked out for the friend, but I'm not willing to gamble on the criminal's good graces once he has me out of public view in my own house.

Bottom line, I will deal with strangers outside my house. First a polite but firm shooing away, and if need be then by whatever other appropriate means I can bring to bear. Even at the risk of harm or death to me. No stranger is getting into my house with me still breathing.
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Old October 17, 2010, 01:54 AM   #44
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If the bad guy just wanted to car, I would give him the keys. I have the equivalent of OnStar and my car can be disabled remotely.

If the wife and baby are inside, I'm taking my chances with him outside.

I don't always have my gun on me, but I always have my knife on me. I haven't formally practiced martial arts in a long while, but I did get my first degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. I would pretend to comply and surprise attack the guy. The most important thing is to get out of the line of the muzzle. Then you go for the most painful and debilitating points of the body including the throat, eyes, and groin.
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Old October 17, 2010, 06:25 AM   #45
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Where I was Born, no CCW, not in the UK now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bill
If you are a husband and/or a father, it is YOUR responsibility to be on guard for dangerous or deadly circumstances and to keep your family safe. Anything less, IMHO, on your part, is negligence.
Big Bill, were you born in Liverpool?

First, living in Florida, always armed, I have an 08 Jeep Grand Cherokee, yes I (Very rarely clean it myself) odd time clean Windscreen in driveway.

Glock 19 under one of my many carry shirts, at 75 I am no fashion plate.

Spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK, 1960 till 1965, 4 years at the Cavern Club, got stabbed twice.
My last altercation, I was 69 YOA, some suited Gent professed a desire to hug my Wife, in an elevator! After I wiped him into the back of that elevator, the altercation was over.

The minute somebody's mouth opens to speak, you own them, going for a gun, under a shirt? No. Step in, go for his gun! He is not going in to my house, my Wife is in there! I am home with Jeep, she (the love of my life) is in our house.

No idea what I would do reference moves, every fight is different, but he can read his mail in jail with one eye? Takes a thumb, flat fist punch to throat, can kill, hurts a lot!

I taught Security/Police/ATM Employees for 25 years, mostly Revolvers.

An exercise we did, empty 870... Checked, checked, and checked again... in hands of student, cocked, off safe, muzzle about 12" from my face, finger on trigger! "When you see me move, press trigger" the click never, ever went when muzzle was facing me, ever! 500 students per year, 25 years.

Ever heard the expression, "Action beats reaction" ? it is true. The day you stop watching, the day you get hurt, gun has to be produced from clothing, if it is not in hand! One last time... "He is not going into my home"

My Buddy's in my dealers wash my Jeep, for free, all my services are done there, no washing vehicles is not pleasure, retired, my job, is looking after my lovely Wife, that is my job.

Last edited by Brit; October 17, 2010 at 06:39 AM.
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Old October 17, 2010, 02:53 PM   #46
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Big Bill, were you born in Liverpool?
Nope, I'm just an Idaho spud - bred and born. But, I've been around the block a few times.
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Old October 19, 2010, 01:30 PM   #47
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If the wife and baby are inside, I'm taking my chances with him outside.
Exactly. Now if it was only me to worry about, I would still try to find a way to not go in the house with him. General rule is to not go to the "2nd crime scene".
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