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Old October 7, 2010, 11:40 PM   #26
jmortimer
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The Gun Nuttery maps were simply to point out all the good work done on a State level not to knock the NRA. As a practical matter nothing has been done in Washington for many, many years to advance the RKBA. In fact, the appointment of liberal Supreme Court Justices has been the biggest blow to the Second Amendment as evidenced by Heller and the 5 to 4 decisions. Republicans may screw-up and appoint a less than worthless Supreme Court Justice (Souter etc) but the democrat will do it on purpose as, again, evidenced by the last two 5 to 4 SCOTUS Second Amendment decisions. Let's see, Justices Roberts, Thomas, Scalia, and Alito or democrat justices kagan, sotomayor, and ginsberg all appointed for very specific purposes to promote specific agendas. Don't tell me there is no difference between the two parties. You all just keep voting for dems as it just don't matter. .Wait till the president appoints another justice or two. You could not be more wrong on this issue - it absolutely matters who is elected and what party they belong to even if there are exceptions

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Old October 7, 2010, 11:43 PM   #27
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The NRAs disgraceful support of the Disclosure Act was beyond the pale. How can anyone say "I support the Second Amend" and ignore the First Amendment even if the NRA made a backroom deal with the devil and got a special exemption for themselves from the Disclosure Act. There will not be a Second Amendment if the First Amendment is gutted with the help of the NRA. That ain't right.
"Back room deal with the devil?" Did you even research the background for the stuff you're posting, or did you pick it out of some blog post?

DISCLOSE looked like a foregone conclusion; the NRA made sure that their interests (and those of their members) were being protected. That's what I expect them to do. It wasn't pretty, but they did what they could with the situation.


If you are a member of the NRA, then you should have seen LaPierre's response regarding this. It was published in all of the magazines sent to members.

What did the GOA do during all this? They sent out hysterical emails to their members. They castigated the NRA from their armchairs. While I think it's good they exist, they really need to consider their style of public relations.
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Old October 7, 2010, 11:55 PM   #28
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No and wrong. God Bless NRA Board Member Cleta Mitchell because she called a spade a spade and knows more about this than both of us put together. Her Op-Ed piece in the Washington Post dated 6-17-2010 tells it like it is http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061604221.html I've never seen so many thoughtless NRA flacks. I used to be an NRA flack - no more Again, God Bless Cleta Mitchell - she is way smart.

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Old October 8, 2010, 12:14 AM   #29
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One last thing, the NRA was not necessarily supporting the best candidate but blindly supporting the incumbent even if the opponent was equally or even better qualified...
That is not correct. The NRA explains why incumbents who have a demonstrated track record in the office in question can be rated higher than a challenger who has never held that office. In some cases this can be further complicated by other issues such as the committees that the incumbent is a member of since the challenger wouldn't necessarily end up on the same committee even if elected.

Again, the NRA is very clear and open about the criteria it uses for coming up with endorsements. You may not agree with their methods but it is inaccurate for you or anyone else to claim that their endorsements amount to "blind support".
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As a practical matter nothing has been done in Washington for many, many years to advance the RKBA.
BS. Just a couple of examples off the top of my head.

First of all, the AWB was equipped with a sunset provision and even so the passage of the AWB with NRA opposition was credited by Clinton with changing the face of congress and of making them unwilling to pass further gun control.

Second, the AWB couldn't be renewed as a result of NRA opposition.

Look, if you don't like the NRA then drop your membership. But stop making things up to bolster your case.
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You all just keep voting for dems as it just don't matter.
This is a straw man. No one is suggesting that it doesn't matter, the point is that NRA support for a candidate is based on a single issue. If you find other issues more important then don't vote purely based on NRA endorsements. It's a simple solution.
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Old October 8, 2010, 12:40 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Tuttle8
I really wonder what peoples' thinking would be if the NRA didn't so some heavy footwork to help out in the Heller case.
Tuttle, you know better than this.

The NRA tried to scuttle Heller. Several times.

-They petitioned the DC District Court to merge the Cato Institute's case (Heller) into their case, so they could drive the argument rather than Cato.
-The got Senator Orin Hatch to introduce legislation in the Senate that would repeal the law in question, thereby making the entire Heller case an issue without standing, so it could not progress through the courts and would be dismissed.
-They petitioned the SCOTUS for an obtuse amount of the argument time, taking away from Gura's time to frame his own arguments, attempting a weaker form of watered down victory rather than the slam dunk that Heller is the groundwork for.

We owe the victories of Heller to Alan Gura, the Cato Institute, and the SAF.

The NRA is even more inept when it comes to Heller, than the much maligned GOA and JPFO.

I pays my money to the NRA for two things:
-My annual NRA RSO credential
-To preserve standing for High Power competitions

Not because of the work they do in Congress or the Courts or the Election system.

I give my money to SAF, Cato and The Heritage Foundation. For local issues, AZ-CDL does a good job, and I've heard that the Virginia equivalent (VCDL) is quite good, too. There's a group in Ohio whose name escapes me right now, of which I've also heard high praise. Buckeye Firearms Association, perhaps? And the California Rifle Association (the guys that run calguns.net, I think) also do good work.

The NRA is too entrenched in keeping the fight going, and not on winning it. We've been DEFENDING the 2A for too long. We need to be ATTACKING the mentality that believes in infringing on the 2A. Which seems to be what much of the current grassroots momentum is driving towards. De-institutionalizing government.
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Old October 8, 2010, 03:12 AM   #31
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NRA isn't strictly republican or democrat. They're not split down the crease/edge reagrding party lines. The NRA does a substantial amount for the gun owners, 2nd Amendment, gun rights, lawsuits defending people wrongfully in the doghouse due to gun laws, etc
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Old October 8, 2010, 07:03 AM   #32
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NRA should, and is, support those members of Congress who support the Second Amendment.

THAT'S IT.
+1.

It's been beat to death in this thread, but I can't understand why anyone would want the NRA to support a party instead of supporting their own agenda.

If the NRA became a wing of the Republican party their power and influence would cease to exist.
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Old October 8, 2010, 08:16 AM   #33
Don P
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I'll take the NRA any day speaking for me. Beats being poked in the eye with a sharp stick and part of my signature states my feelings
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Old October 8, 2010, 09:15 AM   #34
Al Norris
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Originally Posted by jmortimer View Post
The NRAs disgraceful support of the Disclosure Act was beyond the pale.
The NRA did not support the "Disclose Act." When the exemption came about (something that the NRA did not ask for, contrary to some peoples belief), they dropped their disagreement with the act. They were politically against the proposed law. When the exemption was amended into the act, the NRA stopped opposing the bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmortimer
How can anyone say "I support the Second Amend" and ignore the First Amendment even if the NRA made a backroom deal with the devil and got a special exemption for themselves from the Disclosure Act.
It is the National Rifle Association, not the National Rights Association or the National Republican Association. A single issue organization. They are not the ACLU. You want your 1A protected? Join the ACLU, as it is something they do very, very well.

There are actually only two organizations that earn my respect and money. The NRA for every dealing with lobbying the legislature(s) and the SAF for litigating existing law. Note: while the NRA is currently on the litigation side, they are much better at lobbying than litigation - IMNSHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmortimer View Post
God Bless NRA Board Member Cleta Mitchell ...
Um no... Mitchell did not once, in that article, say that the NRA asked for or brokered the "deal." You are reading into the article, because Mitchell was mad that the NRA dropped opposition when the amendment was made public.

The NRA opposed the legislation from the start. They dropped opposition when the amended act was made known to them. Why should the NRA continue to expend monetary and political capitol on something that no longer threatened them? By what possible right did other organizations have, to expect the NRA also protect them?
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Old October 8, 2010, 09:21 AM   #35
Bartholomew Roberts
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Frankly jmortimer, I think you made the right decision. I find your reasoning about how to promote RKBA backwards and obtuse and I'd much rather not have you voting and having a voice in what kind of organization the NRA will be in the future.

Frankly, I'd still be an NRA member first among all the RKBA organizations even if every criticism levelled by irate "gunowners" on Internet forums and GOA press releases were true - because at the end of the day, you don't have an RKBA without ranges to shoot on and an effective firearms safety program and the NRA is the only organization out there doing both of these things on a national level every day.

Then again, I don't see it as an "either/or" choice. I support as many RKBA organizations as I can using the following priority:

1. I support the NRA because having a place to shoot and being able to do so safely is at the core of the RKBA. If other organizations are doing this as well, then I support them too.

2. I support the local/state organization that I think is the most effective - if you stop anti-gun politicians early, you don't have to worry about them reaching the big leagues where they can do more damage.

3. I support organizations who do great litigation work, like SAF. This is particularly important right now.

4. I support organizations who lobby and help get pro-RKBA candidates elected - REGARDLESS OF PARTY. You only have to look at how badly several of the Democrats core-constituencies have been abused to see what tying your wagon to a single party gets you. This is why I'll support NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF but feel reluctant to support GOA, who doesn't seem to agree that relying on one party is strategically unwise.

(I may flip the priority of 3 & 4 depending on whether we are "defensive" or "offensive." Right now, I place litigation as a higher priority because I feel it is extremely important we flesh out the extent of the Second Amendment right in case law as fast as possible so we can do it while the majority that wrote Heller is still on the Court.)

P.S. Was anyone aware that the NRA just endorsed a Democratic incumbent with an A grade over an NRA BOARD MEMBER running for the first time as a Republican? I think that shows great integrity on the part of the NRA.
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Old October 8, 2010, 01:10 PM   #36
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Goodbye and good luck jmortimer and don't let the screen door hit you ...etc. etc.
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Old October 8, 2010, 03:10 PM   #37
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backroom deal with obama/reid/pelosi to limit political free speech with a special exemption for the NRA which failed Thank God.
Excuse me, but I have to call BS here. The Disclose Act exempted ALL established organizations which got less than 15% of their funding from corporations from having to reveal where their money came from. That means the NRA, AARP, Audubon Society, all the big grassroots groups. And it had nothing to do with "limiting political free speech," or whatever spin you were told. It had to do with making sure that corporations couldn't pour unlimited, untraceable money, including foreign money, into US elections. Right now the US Chamber of Commerce is using Chinese money to try and defeat bills and elected officials that oppose outsourcing of jobs to China. They don't even deny it. That is the problem.
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Old October 8, 2010, 03:51 PM   #38
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1) Heller
2) McDonald
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Old October 8, 2010, 04:01 PM   #39
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UH? Is there a point to those two and the NRA? Good or bad?
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Old October 8, 2010, 04:21 PM   #40
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Gun oweners and defenders of the 2A must be an indepedendent bloc of voters that the Republicans cannot take for granted and the Democrats cannot cross except at their peril.
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Old October 8, 2010, 04:27 PM   #41
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I no longer single issue vote, most representatives seem to vote party line currently regardless of the issue, other issues are at least as important to me, but it doesn't mean I don't support the NRA's agenda 100%. I don't get the thinking that you've been betrayed beyond repair.
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Old October 8, 2010, 04:53 PM   #42
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by ADB
And it had nothing to do with "limiting political free speech," or whatever spin you were told.
Which I guess is why groups like the Sierra Club opposed it - so they could continue to pour their dirty untraceable corporate money from China into elections.

Do you actually discuss firearms or do you just hang around to promote the lefty meme of the day despite the no politics rule?
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Old October 8, 2010, 06:18 PM   #43
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Don't forget the SAF who brought us Mcdonald vs Chicago and a bunch of settled and pending cases. Check Al's log of the many cases being funded and brought by SAF and Calguns FOUNDATION. These organizations, in my opinion are at the front of the 2A battle, with the NRA.

NRA needs to upgrade it's attitude and start playing nice with the rest of the kids in the sandbox. They don't need credit for everything, but if there is any more obstruction, they will earn the ire of some pretty loyal folks.

A little time-out in contributions might help them see the light. That's my approach, anyway.

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Old October 8, 2010, 07:14 PM   #44
kelo4u2
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Never again jmortimer

The NRA is to protect gun rights, and gun rights only. The are not there just for gun owners. Anybody can own a gun but that does not mean that they can take it out and shoot it. In New Jersey you need a firearms permit to purchase a gun and to take it to go hunting and shooting but not to own a gun. The NRA is not going to come to NJ a fight that law. The NRA went to DC and Chicago along with other lawyers to fight their laws because they had no rights at all to own a gun. That is what they do and they will want anyone that is a democrat or republican in office as long as they are for gun rights. That is all they fight for- gun rights, not rights for anything else. So stop your whinning about them supporting a democrat.
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Old October 8, 2010, 07:47 PM   #45
Glenn E. Meyer
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Ah - Chinese, lefties, Democrats, trees and elephants!

I think we all expressed ourselves. Now we will become a jello tub match between Glenn Beck and Keith Olbermann.

So, instead.

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