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Old October 1, 2010, 08:34 AM   #1
Double Naught Spy
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Video of Inoculation Training?

http://www.txhoghunting.com/app/foru...-pass-the-test

NOTE Foul language in video. May not be work or family friendly.

So I was searching for hog hunting videos and came across a forum for Texas hog hunting that had videos. I came across this thread (see link) on what was billed as a shooting evaluation for volunteer hog hunters. That sounded cool given all the folks wanting a chance to hunt hogs for free that don't have any land. I figured somebody had a big ranch with serious hog issues and needed help with the problem, but had standards needing to be met before letting strangers hunt his/her land. Obviously, the video isn't for that purpose and was likely posted as a joke relative to hog hunting, though the video looks real enough as maybe being some sort of test or innoculation training.

Inoculation training for dealing with combat stress can be a fine teaching tool. However what I saw in the video was upsetting. The amount of demonstrated unsafe gun handling and unsafe shooting just blew me away, pardon the pun. I don't know what the student is shooting at or even if his gun has actual ammo in it, but the instructor's gun most certainly does based on the dirt kicked up by his shots.

So does anyone know where this sort of training/testing is done? Is this some sort of contractor training?
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Old October 1, 2010, 08:54 AM   #2
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Inoculation training for dealing with combat stress can be a fine teaching tool. However what I saw in the video was upsetting. The amount of demonstrated unsafe gun handling and unsafe shooting just blew me away, pardon the pun. I don't know what the student is shooting at or even if his gun has actual ammo in it, but the instructor's gun most certainly does based on the dirt kicked up by his shots.
+1 on demonstrating unsafe gun handling /shooting. This looks extremely dangerous and when the instructor shot the ground less than a foot from the student's head it topped it off.
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Old October 1, 2010, 09:46 PM   #3
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Meh.

Stressful and loud and scary but it didn't look all that bad considering the participants. These were not normal folks. Doing this with normal folks would make as much sense as giving a regular guy with a drivers license an Indy car. No bueno for Joe Snuffy but no problem for (Insert driver's name here)

When I was a swat police we used to train for vehicle assaults where we had shooters on both sides of the car shooting inboard and sniper initiated assaults where the long rifle boys shot right past the entry team. On one special occasion we set up targets facing each other along the sides of the range. By the time the drill was over we were standing between the targets while our partners shot them and we shot the targets beside them. I never doubted my partner's skill or guts after that day. Stupid with normal people and a serious calculated risk with trained entry guys but it was a whole lot safer and more controlled than a real world encounter would be.

For what its worth I once heard rumor that the French GIGN used to do force on force training using live 22s and heavy armor. Suicidal for most. Just another special day at the office for a very rare few.

Training to go into the badness that others run away from is not for the average bear.
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Old October 2, 2010, 12:01 AM   #4
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Lot more dust and flash from instructor's shots - maybe blanks with blank adapter removed from weapon.
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:15 AM   #5
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"indoctrinate"

I don't care who you are that is silly and unsafe in a training environment and will get someone killed. I may have tolerated that 30 years ago, but today me and that "instructor" would be in a discussion. I am all for realistic training but there are other ways to accomplish it. For example, when I attended SWAT training in 1983 we had to run 1/4 mile in gas masks, remove the mask and immediately begin the combat shooting course.
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Old October 2, 2010, 10:17 AM   #6
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Stressful and loud and scary but it didn't look all that bad considering the participants. These were not normal folks. Doing this with normal folks would make as much sense as giving a regular guy with a drivers license an Indy car. No bueno for Joe Snuffy but no problem for (Insert driver's name here)

When I was a swat police we used to train for vehicle assaults where we had shooters on both sides of the car shooting inboard and sniper initiated assaults where the long rifle boys shot right past the entry team. On one special occasion we set up targets facing each other along the sides of the range. By the time the drill was over we were standing between the targets while our partners shot them and we shot the targets beside them. I never doubted my partner's skill or guts after that day. Stupid with normal people and a serious calculated risk with trained entry guys but it was a whole lot safer and more controlled than a real world encounter would be.- grumpycoconut
Agreed. I'm thinking blanks in the instructors rifle and if that was indeed the case, I say good training. (I never saw any impacts on the ground) Not far at all from training that I've received in good SWAT courses. Our team also does sniper initiated entries, and we've done live fire officer rescue drills, with live officers down range. Intense training for sure, but there is no real substitute otherwise. The better the group of people you're working with, the more the envelope can be pushed.
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Old October 2, 2010, 10:41 AM   #7
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Old October 2, 2010, 12:04 PM   #8
Bartholomew Roberts
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Those are South African contractors training. The SAS/SBS and other organizations have used similar style training in the past. I don't know whether they still do it; and I'm not educated enough on the subject to speak as to whether it can be done safely.

My WAG would be that the training can be done safely with top quality instructors and facilities - otherwise these organizations wouldn't have used that type of training since they expend considerable resources to even identify likely candidates and can't afford to occasionally shoot the promising ones in a training accident. Of course, for all I know they no longer use that type of training because that is exactly what did happen - so I could be all washed up about that.

I think it goes without saying you'd have to have an immense amount of trust in an instructor to undergo anything remotely similar to that.
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:04 PM   #9
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Agreed. I'm thinking blanks in the instructors rifle and if that was indeed the case, I say good training.
I have watched the vid several times. There is heavy muzzle flash from the instructor's gun, but dirt also kicks up as if being struck by bullets. Blanks that I have fired won't kick up dirt like that as far from the muzzle as his shots were doing.
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Old October 3, 2010, 07:32 AM   #10
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I have watched the vid several times. There is heavy muzzle flash from the instructor's gun, but dirt also kicks up as if being struck by bullets. Blanks that I have fired won't kick up dirt like that as far from the muzzle as his shots were doing.
I don't want to highjack your thread with what blanks will or will not do, and as I said originally, I THINK they are blanks.

The basis of that thinking is little more than the fact that I have a few hundred 308 blanks on hand and in a moment of boredom I tried using them to clear spider webs from the eaves and overhangs of my hunting club. From 10-12 ft, one blank would cleanly remove 4-5 sq ft of web, large garden spider, and any other debris that happened to be around the web. From up close (point blank to a couple of feet) they would just turn everything into dust.

As for muzzle blast, I've very rarely ever seen any coming from live ammo in day light.

(I'm not trying to argue, just supporting my thought.) If that's live ammo they are using, they've got a lot more cajoles than me, if it's blanks, sign me up!
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Old October 3, 2010, 12:50 PM   #11
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Guys, lets not get too hung up on whether or not blanks were used. The issue is inoculation training.

Anyone remember the sci-fi movie "Soldier", starring Kurt Russel? Now THAT was classic inoculation training. That was fiction, but I think the training received by elite military units of some foreign countries came close.

Here in the good ol' US of A, we do a lot of inoculation training, toned down quite a bit, but the same principle applies. Simunitions, FOF, even FATS qualifies.

A few years ago, there was a thread here detailing how Gabe Suarez stood downrange, beside an actively engaged target . However radical, I believe (re)inoculation was his goal? Even so, it remains a mystery of psychology to me that anyone would actively seek to relive such experiences. Adrenalin rush, maybe?

Needless to say, it stirred up some controversy here. Interesting read, and you can find it here.
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Old October 3, 2010, 01:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
My WAG would be that the training can be done safely with top quality instructors and facilities - otherwise these organizations wouldn't have used that type of training since they expend considerable resources to even identify likely candidates and can't afford to occasionally shoot the promising ones in a training accident.
And yet even high-speed low-drag outfits get guys smoked in training. Didn't a Force Recon guy shoot up the dude in front of him in the stack while practicing entries not too many years back? One or two SWAT cops somewhere in this great land seem to get set on fire every year, too, although that's usually caused by "Whoops! I thought this was a Simunitions gun!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Charlie
However radical...
Todd Green had a recent piece on the flip side of that coin.
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Old October 3, 2010, 01:15 PM   #13
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Meh....

Looked like blanks to me.

/shrug

They're just trying to reinforce the dudes ability to follow instructions and concentrate on the task at hand while ignoring distractions. There are many ways to do that, of which, this IS one. May not be the preferred technique, but it IS a technique.
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Old October 4, 2010, 11:35 AM   #14
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And yet even high-speed low-drag outfits get guys smoked in training. Didn't a Force Recon guy shoot up the dude in front of him in the stack while practicing entries not too many years back?
Absolutely true. Even the elite guys have fatalities during training due primarily to the types of high-risk activities they are training for. At least some of those units apparently believed at one point that they could mitigate the risk from this type of training to the degree that the benefits were worth the risk. I don't know if that is still the case.

Of course, that is an entirely different thing from Joe the local Sheriff's Reserve Deputy and champion IPSC shooter running 40-50yr old couch potatoes who have 24 hours of instruction with a firearm in their belt through similar scenarios at the local range.

There are a number of schools out there with experienced instructors from some of these elite units. To the best of my knowledge, none of them use the type of training shown in the video with their students. I think that is probably a solid clue as to how appropriate that kind of training is for most people.
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Old October 5, 2010, 09:51 AM   #15
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training

This type of training is good when the Firearms are removed. We do similar things and even with our students actively engaging steel but the instructor has no firearms and the RSO is arms length away at all times. We also use the gas mask's and PT to get the blood pumping and teach the same skills.
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