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Old September 5, 2010, 11:15 PM   #1
WeedWacker
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AR-pistol and SBR NFA rules question

Ok, I live in a State which in it's infinite wisdom decided an SBR is too dangerous for the average joe to own. I am leaning towards having the next best thing but I am making sure I don't break any rules unintentionally and wind up losing my 2A enjoyment.

I have been reading the NFA rules regarding SBR's and AR pistols if you have a complete rifle. I'm officially confused. Since I already have two complete rifles, if I buy a stripped lower, have it registered as a pistol as per the ATF, can I build a pistol out of it while owning two rifles without falling through the thin ice known as the NFA?
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Old September 5, 2010, 11:18 PM   #2
Raven Armament
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There is no pistol registration with the ATF.

The firearm is the type of firearm it is when it's complete.

Buy a bare lower. Make it a pistol. Done.
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Old September 6, 2010, 01:34 AM   #3
WeedWacker
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Washington State requires registration of pistols and the ATF considers a stripped lower to be a pistol. Ran into this last two lowers I bought, they had to be transferred to another FFL from Idaho side (Long guns don't matter in the area). The part that is tripping me up is the so called intent to build (which can charge you for a crime you haven't even committed yet, but that's a whole other legal discussion). If I have even one completed rifle, I cannot have in my possession an upper that drops below the required legal length. However, my state doesn't even allow SBR's, so if I build a pistol lower then purchase the upper am I keeping off the toes of the bureaucrats who come up with these strange laws, both ATF and local?
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Old September 6, 2010, 04:43 AM   #4
David Hineline
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Something is not a pistol till it's a pistol. A stripped receiver is not a pistol or a rifle until it is a pistol or rifle, it is an other, it's right on the form 4473 it is either a Handgun, a Long Gun, or an Other.

Handguns and Others can not be purchased across state lines, and only by 21 or older when purchased from a dealer.

If you want a pistol then build or buy a pistol, various companies sell factory pistol versions. Intent is just that, if you intend to build something then that is intent, it has to be proved. Possession of a receiver, short barrel, and buttstock would be intent. Possession of a gun built up as a pistol without the parts to make it a rifle is not intent.

Possession of a shotgun with an 18" barrel and a hack saw is not intent.
Possession of a shotgun with an 18" barrel and a hack saw and talking about chopping it off on the internet and at the local bar, is intent.
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Old September 6, 2010, 11:21 AM   #5
Raven Armament
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Quote:
ATF considers a stripped lower to be a pistol
This is false. A bare receiver or frame is not and is never a pistol by itself. A frame is a frame and a receiver is a receiver. They are nothing else unless built in a complete firearm configuration.
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Old September 6, 2010, 07:38 PM   #6
WeedWacker
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Quote:
Quote:
ATF considers a stripped lower to be a pistol
This is false. A bare receiver or frame is not and is never a pistol by itself. A frame is a frame and a receiver is a receiver. They are nothing else unless built in a complete firearm configuration.
It is considered a pistol when transferred across state lines. There was a new policy that came out and I saw the letter and everything to the FFL notifying him of an update of policy due to the ability of people to build a rifle or a pistol out of a stripped AR-15 lower. This allowed a supposed "loophole" for people to have a pistol without registration in certain states like Washington (where I live).


Quote:
Possession of a gun built up as a pistol without the parts to make it a rifle is not intent.

So the fact that I have in my possession two complete rifles with two complete lowers both of which have buttstocks on them does not impact the legality of me purchasing another lower and building it up as a pistol?

(Which is where the confusion lies for me)
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Old September 6, 2010, 08:03 PM   #7
Raven Armament
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Quote:
It is considered a pistol when transferred across state lines.
No, again that is 100% false.

Plain English for you again:

A frame or receiver is not a pistol, not a rifle, not a shotgun, not anything other than a frame or receiver.
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Old September 6, 2010, 09:32 PM   #8
WeedWacker
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Quote:
No, again that is 100% false.

Plain English for you again:

A frame or receiver is not a pistol, not a rifle, not a shotgun, not anything other than a frame or receiver.

I am a resident of Clarkston, Washington. If I purchase a long gun in Lewiston, even though it is Idaho, there is no transfer necessary. However, if the firearm is a pistol/handgun it must be transferred as it must be registered in the state of Washington if purchased from an FFL. All dealers that I have dealt with on the Idaho side in Lewiston do this and it does not vary. I bought A T-15 stripped lower at a local dealer in Lewiston, Idaho. I thought (and the shop owner at the time also thought) that it would transfer as a long gun like the old rules stated. However, one of the employees who had seen the letter (he did the mail for the guy) had the letter from the ATF requiring the transfer as a pistol/handgun and I had to have it transferred over to a Washington side FFL and pay the transfer fee and register the lower as a pistol with Washington State.

Plain English for you, my friend. A transferred stripped reciever is transferred as a handgun/pistol and those rules apply.

Now, please answer my question:

Will me having two completed lowers with buttstocks (without my distinct implication that I wish to perform an illicit act of SBRmanship) count as "intent" as the law implies?
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Old September 6, 2010, 10:12 PM   #9
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A bare AR15 lower is neither a longarm or a pistol. It is considered "Other" on the 4473.

As it is not a longarm or a pistol - ATF has issued a directive noting such and that only longarms are subject to the age limits of being 18 to buy. Anything "other" than a handgun or a longarm is subject to a min age of 21.

This includes pistol grip shotguns.

That is where many of the "it is treated like a pistol" arguments can trace their roots as "if you have to be 21 to buy it, it must mean it is treated as a pistol" when it is not.
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Old September 6, 2010, 10:16 PM   #10
WeedWacker
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Fort crying out loud, I just regaled you all of a completely unnecessary story of firsthand experience of treating a stripped lower as a pistol. That is not what is in question here, I came asking about intent and all you guys are just fixated on the pistol thing. Forget that at least and please answer the question.
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Old September 6, 2010, 10:52 PM   #11
Raven Armament
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Because you are wrong. A bare frame or receiver does not fit the federal definition of a pistol, handgun, or revolver according to the definitions given in 27 CFR 478.11. Since a frame or receiver has none of those and fits none of those descriptions, your argument of interstate pistol transfer is incorrect, not accurate, and completely irrelevant.

So post the letter or email me the letter stating that a bare frame or receiver is a pistol.

Your question was answered in the second post in this thread.

But since you neglect to heed the facts presented by people in the industry that know the laws, know the policies, and know the way things simply ARE, I'm done with you and this thread. Good luck and take care!
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Old September 6, 2010, 11:10 PM   #12
DaveWUSAF
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Washington state does NOT require registration of any handguns. There is a voluntary registration form you can fill out if you desire but I have never done that

Dave Williams
(Lewis County, Wa)
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Old September 7, 2010, 12:32 AM   #13
WeedWacker
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Quote:
Because you are wrong. A bare frame or receiver does not fit the federal definition of a pistol, handgun, or revolver according to the definitions given in 27 CFR 478.11. Since a frame or receiver has none of those and fits none of those descriptions, your argument of interstate pistol transfer is incorrect, not accurate, and completely irrelevant.

So post the letter or email me the letter stating that a bare frame or receiver is a pistol.

Your question was answered in the second post in this thread.

But since you neglect to heed the facts presented by people in the industry that know the laws, know the policies, and know the way things simply ARE, I'm done with you and this thread. Good luck and take care!
Here is a discussion on another forum over the non-issue at hand you have discussed and not completely answered my question.

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/533...al-issues.html

Quote:
Washington state does NOT require registration of any handguns. There is a voluntary registration form you can fill out if you desire but I have never done that

Dave Williams
(Lewis County, Wa)
Every pistol I have purchased from an FFL (not face to face) has had a pistol form filled out from my understanding and from my discussion with the FFL holder that it was required by law or as I seem to have understood it int he writing. IANAL and I don't plan on ever being one as I suck at reading the lawyer speak but I can get generalities from it.

Now, as far as my original question being answered:

Quote:
Possession of a gun built up as a pistol without the parts to make it a rifle is not intent.
The only really pertinent post to what my question is. My response was:

Quote:
So the fact that I have in my possession two complete rifles with two complete lowers both of which have buttstocks on them does not impact the legality of me purchasing another lower and building it up as a pistol?

(Which is where the confusion lies for me)

Please leave the pistol registration to rest and answer the only question I have really wanted an answer to.
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Old September 7, 2010, 08:10 AM   #14
paull
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Quote:
Please leave the pistol registration to rest and answer the only question I have really wanted an answer to.
The answer is yes, it does not.

But, that has already been explained to you.

Maybe you prefer a different answer..?

p
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Old September 7, 2010, 08:26 AM   #15
full.tang.halo
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I think you have your question backwards, or at least your concerns. Right now you have 2 legal ar-15 rifles, these consist of, more or less, a lower receiver with a stock, and a 16" overall length upper. So

2 rifle lowers with stocks
2 16" uppers

You buy a pistol lower with a cap or buffer tube only. Now,

2 rifle lowers with stocks
2 16" uppers
1 pistol marked lower

You are still good because: you can't attach a stock to the pistol lower, it is capped or has a buffer tube that won't accept one. A 16" upper on a pistol lower is still a pistol, a really long barreled pistol, but still a pistol

Then, you buy a 10" upper and put it on the pistol lower. Now,

2 rifle lowers with stocks
2 16" uppers
1 pistol marked lower
1 10" upper

Again you are still good because your number of "short" uppers is less than or equal to the number of pistol lowers you own. Just keep the 16" rifle uppers attached to the rifle lowers, and the 10" upper attached to the pistol unless you're cleaning or doing other maintenance, if you wanna be ultra safe.

Long and the short of it is don't have more sub 16" uppers than the number of pistol lowers you own, keep it 1:1 or less.
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Old September 7, 2010, 08:37 AM   #16
WeedWacker
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Thank you full.tang.halo
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Old September 7, 2010, 09:48 AM   #17
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AR pistols are as ghey as it gets so what's the diff?
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Old September 7, 2010, 12:46 PM   #18
WeedWacker
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Yes, AR-pistols are 'ghey' as you put it, but so is the ixnay on SBR's in the state of Washington. I cannot move as it is right now so a pistol is as close to an SBR as I'm going to get. I still have to debate caliber and I'm leaning pistol right now.
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