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Old September 3, 2010, 10:55 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLT
...In the one-on-one discussions I have with people regarding the gun on my belt, I have seen plenty of evidence of it being true...
Anecdotes aren't evidence. As I mentioned, there is most likely a range of public reactions. You have the limited experience of interacting with a minuscule, non-representative, non-random sample of the people in your community. Big deal. One swallow does not a summer make.
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Old September 3, 2010, 10:55 PM   #27
Mr. James
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fiddletown,

I know anecdotes aren't data, but I can tell you from lengthy personal experience open carrying in a decidedly anti-gun locale (Fairfax County, Virginia), I have had many, many discussions with folks asking me, in varying tones, am I a cop (no), can I carry, why do I carry? When I answer their questions politely, reasonably, confidently, largely taking lessons learned here, even the unconvinced walk away thinking about it.

I also submit "focus groups" would mean nothing. When you're face to face with an anti- or ambivalent- who has the stones to approach you, and you present yourself politely, well, I haven't had one call the cops on me!

The timing here is odd, but my sister, who's viscerally anti-gun (which is cognitive dissonance defined, given her profession), spent the weekend with me. I open carried all weekend. She never said a word until we parted this very day, and she asked, do I get challenged much. I answered honestly, no. Most don't notice. Those that do think I'm a cop. This was the same woman who once saw me with a Spyderco knife and said, "I wouldn't want to live in a world where you thought that was necessary."

Again, anecdotes aren't data. But clearly, one anti was acclimated to open carry.

I see it all the time. Open carry ain't for everyone, admittedly.

God bless,

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Old September 3, 2010, 11:04 PM   #28
NavyLT
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Quote:
Anecdotes aren't evidence. As I mentioned, there is most likely a range of public reactions. You have the limited experience of interacting with a minuscule, non-representative, non-random sample of the people in your community. Big deal. One swallow does not a summer make.
And exactly how would you know the extent of my open carry? Of course you are speaking from your many years of open carry yourself, correct? Oh, wait, California... ahhh, never mind, that explains everything! You probably fit in very well there.
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Old September 3, 2010, 11:06 PM   #29
bearone2
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open carry's been allowed in az forever, ccw permit since '94, ccw for everyone not a felon or adjudicated dangerous since july 29, 2010.
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Old September 3, 2010, 11:28 PM   #30
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. James
...Again, anecdotes aren't data. But clearly, one anti was acclimated to open carry...
I'm glad you've had good experiences, but anecdotes are still not data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLT
...And exactly how would you know the extent of my open carry?...
It doesn't matter. Unless you have conducted studies with a properly randomized sample to assure interaction with a representative cross section of the public, your experiences remain mere anecdotes and are not data. At best they may suggest a hypothesis, but the hypothesis still must be tested before the proposition is entitled to credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLT
...Of course you are speaking from your many years of open carry yourself, correct? Oh, wait, California...
I stated no conjecture as fact based on my experience. I merely posited a hypothesis.

And in any case, California just came within I believe one vote in the State Senate of outlawing unloaded open carry. And it came to that pass because some RKBA activists grossly misread public sentiment and bought into the "let's show folks ordinary people carrying guns" business.
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Old September 3, 2010, 11:35 PM   #31
NavyLT
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And in any case, California just came within I believe one vote in the State Senate of outlawing unloaded open carry. And it came to that pass because some RKBA activists grossly misread public sentiment and bought into the "let's show folks ordinary people carrying guns" business.
Your logic makes perfect sense for California: It is better to have a "right" (unloaded open carry - not much of a right, but it's all you got) that a person dare not exercise under fear of losing that right than to not have that right... :barf:

You speak great volumes from your personal disdain of open carry firmly rooted within the opinions of your California propaganda infested closed mind.
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Old September 3, 2010, 11:57 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLT
Your logic makes perfect sense for California: It is better to have a "right" (unloaded open carry - not much of a right, but it's all you got) that a person dare not exercise under fear of losing that right than to not have that right...
We've been round and round on this, but it is a historical fact that many "rights" have indeed been lost because enough of the public disapproved of the ways in which there were exercised.

Over the years, in many communities, we have seen many zoning and other laws adopted restricting how you can use your own property. In some places you may not work on your car in your own driveway in view of the public street. In some places you must get design approval of remodeling or landscaping visible to the public. In some communities, you may not park or store large vehicles like boats on trailers or RVs on your property so as to be visible to the public. These sorts of restrictions have in large part been the result of strong enough public sentiment that some things previously lawfully done by private parties on their own land were unseemly or unattractive.

The point is not whether these sorts of restrictions are right. The point is that they do exist. And the fact of their existence illustrates that if enough voters find some form of otherwise lawful conduct in public to be obnoxious, politicians will be only too happy to pass laws against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLT
...You speak great volumes from your personal disdain of open carry firmly rooted within the opinions of your California propaganda infested closed mind...
And that is the purest nonsense. I indeed have carried openly when visiting Arizona (as well as concealed -- I have permits from Arizona, Nevada, Utah and Florida). But I do think that people who see open carry as a worthwhile political statement are sadly mistaken. By all means, carry your gun openly if it's convenient and legal, but I don't accept the proposition that doing so is furthers the RKBA in any meaningful way.
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Old September 4, 2010, 01:43 AM   #33
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If someone is going to react negatively to an openly carried firearm, there was already no convincing them otherwise, that mind was already lost. OC'ing - for me at least - is not for the "there ought to be a law" types. Like I said, there is no winning over those ones. It's for the people that come up to me and ask how it's legal. The next thing out of their mouths is almost always "can I do that?".

The simple fact that OC is still legal in CA is a testament to the extremely good PR campaign at OC'ers are waging.
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Old September 4, 2010, 02:04 AM   #34
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefner
...If someone is going to react negatively to an openly carried firearm, there was already no convincing them otherwise,...
It's not about convincing them otherwise. It's about forestalling the galvanization of anti-gun sentiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefner
...The simple fact that OC is still legal in CA is a testament to the extremely good PR campaign at OC'ers are waging,....
No, it is not. It is the result of hard lobbying by the more mainstream RKBA organizations here in California and the fact that the Legislature is focused on fiscal and budget concerns.

And open carry is not legal in California. Unloaded open carry is. Of course unloaded open carry is pretty useless. And as a practical matter, because of California laws prohibiting possession of a gun within 1,000 feet of a school, going about one's normal business while openly carrying an unloaded gun is very difficult.

Now open carry used to be legal. But then some Black Panthers openly carrying loaded gun upset enough people that quite a few years back it was made illegal.
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Old September 4, 2010, 09:58 AM   #35
Al Norris
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As we all should know, OC is a contentious issue. Even in States that have no prohibitions against OC, it is an issue.

However when discussions on the merits, or lack thereof, of OC begin to degrade into obnoxious behavior, as seen in the last few posts, we have lost any meaningful communications.

Closed for lack of civility.
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