The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 25, 2010, 02:28 AM   #26
jgcoastie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaninlv
How to carry a baton?
Thunderwear???











Yeah, I went there...


I'm surprised I'm the first to think of it....
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Old July 25, 2010, 04:10 PM   #27
govmule84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: Up on a hill
Posts: 398
^Thread winner.
govmule84 is offline  
Old July 25, 2010, 08:32 PM   #28
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn_Dee
I wonder if most departments prescribe the position and manner to carry an impact weapon while on duty, and in uniform.

I personally dont like those colapsable batons. Refused to carry one. Didnt like the PR24's either.

COCOBOLO.... now ya talking. Off duty or in civies?.. Blackjack, or a slapper!

Ohh how I long for the old days...
The old days? You sound like a former LEO.

Most departments don't prescribe the positioning of the gear on your duty belt. They will, however, prohibit certain practices they don't want officers to do -- crossdraw holster, handcuffs on the front of the belt, exposed ammo, magazine carriers must be vertical, etc.

Most of the time, an officer is relatively free to decide what works best for her/him. And truth be told, today there isn't a lot of variation in relative positioning of the ton of crap they have to carry.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 25, 2010, 08:40 PM   #29
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
Now why in Texas can you not carry a club around? There are some good reasons as to why someone might want to carry a club or a Taser. For example, imagine you are the manager of a Papa Johns making the nightly drop at the safe deposit box.

I could go on and on with different examples. There are some people who need a greater level of protection then just their hands. They may not be comfortable with a pistol and so they choose a club-like weapon.
Some years ago, here in California, carrying a baton (or nunchucks, shirken stars, dirks, daggers, saps, etc.) was a felony charge, while carrying a concealed handgun was only a misdemeanor on the first offense. It's not rocket science to figure out why.

Look at the difference in use of the two weapons. A gun is loud and it's use is considered deadly force and/or attempted homicide. It leaves behind evidence (bullet, casing) that can be traced to that weapon.

A club/baton on the other hand, is nearly silent. On the human body, it leaves little trace evidence that is unique to that weapon. It is also easily discarded or obtained/made. It's the better choice for a thug to use on an unsuspecting citizen walking alone. And while it can kill, using it right can be nearly permanently disabling without the noise of a firearm.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 26, 2010, 04:20 PM   #30
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
OK..

Yes I am a retired police officer. I have carried an impact weapon for my entire career. Now I carry one once in a while when doing security details.

Unlike many... I got to try out various impact weapons in ahhh some stressfull situations.

Impact weapons like firearms have their own niche within the force continum.

I have been trained in, and used
ASP Colapsable baton ... Not very impressed with the intimidation factor or the results. IMO the asp is a law suit waiting to happen for any civilian.

PR24 Side handle baton. Not a bad tool but still essentially a night stick. Requires much training, and a lot of memory space. Requires too much decision making during the fight. Unless of course you use it as a night stick. I have been beaten with PR24's They dont really hurt when used properly. Just ask Rodeney King.

Night stick. Nice window dressing if it's made of pine. If it's a cocobolo, or ironwood stick. You have yourself a weapon that will work every time. Minimal training needed. ( you need to be tought where NOT to hit someone)
Intimidation factor is very high... It's just a piece of wood. No one will ever doubt that getting hit with a piece of wood will hurt. No one wants to get hit with a piece of wood. Plastic?, a little rod? Not so scary. Night sticks are easier to retain, and much easier to transition to your hand gun, and retain control over the impact weapon. Can you tell I prefer the night stick?...lol

Day stick ( for you real old timers) Or rubber trunchion. The ones we had were hollow, and could be filled with the weighted substance of choice. But pretty much useless. But you needed one to get a uniform check.

Black-Jack, or Weighted slapper. Dangerous tools. Too easy to use enough force to cave in a skull. Those guys who trained me, and others like me are all but gone now. This is truely a tool for professionals, and thugs. I wouldnt recomend any civilian carrying one... But... If you must... nothing works better. In some jurisdictions they are listed as deadly weapons.

4 Cell maglite. IMO not such a good idea for a policeman. But an exelent idea for a civilian. Hey it's a flashlight. OK so it's a 12" long weighted metal flashlight... but It's still a flashlight. It's not intimidating it's a flashlight... but it is intimidating. It's not a dedicated impact weapon... But it sure will do the job of one. I think it may be easier to explain hitting someone with a flashlight than it would a professional police tool.

Just my own experiences. maybe someone else will chime in with their own.


Glenn Dee
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old July 26, 2010, 04:21 PM   #31
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
And by the way... Impact weapons are always carried Off-hand.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old July 27, 2010, 09:07 AM   #32
nefprotector
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2009
Location: SE Alabama
Posts: 701
why is it that I got drilled for asking this very same question?
nefprotector is offline  
Old July 27, 2010, 09:11 PM   #33
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
Quote:
I have been trained in, and used ASP Colapsable baton ... Not very impressed with the intimidation factor or the results. IMO the asp is a law suit waiting to happen for any civilian.
Yep. As it turns out, slapping someone with 20 ounces of aluminum really isn't disabling. Yeah, I know, use the last 1/3 and hit the nerve bundles. Works great. Unless the bad-guy is moving... like when fighting. Or he's on meth, coke, or any of 1000 other drugs.

It's so freakin lawyer-proof that it's damn near useless, yet LOOKS horrendous when someone tapes you using it.

It was a waste of weight on my belt. I don't carry the aluminum whiffle bat other than for mandatory training.
Kmar40 is offline  
Old July 28, 2010, 12:27 AM   #34
TCman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 512
I prefer to carry my asp right behind my sidearm. If some thing is about to go down, my strong hand is on the grip of my weapon. It's an easy move to move my hand back to get the asp. I feel weakside is to much movement, since I prefer to use it with my stronghand. In training we have to use both, strong and weak, but im not comfortable with the weakhand. For what it's worth, I carry my O.C. right in front of my sidearm, which is able to be deployed by strong or weakhand.
__________________
Il keep my freedom, my guns, and my money. You can keep the change.
TCman is offline  
Old July 29, 2010, 09:21 AM   #35
porkskin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2005
Posts: 335
I think having to justify using any self defense tool as a civilian with a clean background record is absurd. I have a concealed handgun permit. My state does not piggyback other weapons to that like FL, AZ and others do. Do I carry impact weapons...damn right. Why? Because not every defensive encounter demands a firearm, because I would like a less than lethal option, because I don't like fistfights and don't plan on fighting fair if I am made to join one. I don't like the knife option and I carry several "other use" impact weapons and at times legitamate LEATHER SAPS. I own a backjack, but have decided for the time being that it would be too hard to explain to LEO even if I was justified and the potential for caved in skull is too real.
porkskin is offline  
Old July 29, 2010, 09:49 AM   #36
ISC
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,982
It looks like this is working pretty well for her:


Collapsable batons can beome a lethal weapon if you don't know where to strike someone with them. Before OC/CS spray they were one of the few effective non lethal methods to subdue someone resisting arrest.

As a civilian the circumstances where you'd be authorized in arresting someone are very limited.

Carrying a baton off duty is pretty extreme, and carrying a baton without the proper training is pretty reckless.

The word that I haven't seen used on this thread yet is "bludgeon". If you recognize the negative connotations to that word you have a reason to. bludgeons are notgenerally considered defensive in nature, and carrying any sort of clup, sap, baton, etc wakes a strong case for you possessing offensive intent.
ISC is offline  
Old July 29, 2010, 05:28 PM   #37
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
I may not have as much experience in actual confrontations but, I agree with Glen Dee, aside from the off-hand carry but I'm no LEO. However, for civilian carry I preferred the Collapsible baton. Sure, I could carry a large stick and it's legal, but something smaller is much preferred. As for the weapon being a lawsuit waiting to happen, look at it this way, if you miss you most likely aren't going to hit anyone else. Sure, "bludgeon" sounds worse, but I feel more comfortable defending myself within a small area as opposed to worrying about hurting someone innocent. That and you can't tell me that a "semi-automatic 9mm pistol" sounds any better.

Again, on carrying your baton, it should be what is most comfortable but easy to retain and put into use.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old July 29, 2010, 07:06 PM   #38
porkskin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2005
Posts: 335
http://www.d3protection.com/17.html

for those who can legally carry, or those who will take their chances...this guy's stuff is truly artwork. I have a few pieces and they are great. TN, FL, AZ to name a few are legal
porkskin is offline  
Old July 29, 2010, 08:33 PM   #39
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
I'm no Bruce Lee and I had no prob controlling what turned out to be a drunk CPD officer with a PR-24. I worked a couple years at private security until I realized I had skills, lol.

I carried it offhand. I still have it but would never carry it...except in the truck. It's a great item to have in the truck. Very innocuous until needed then most of the time nobody wants to road rage anymore when they see it.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old August 28, 2010, 02:50 PM   #40
rudeboy3
Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2009
Location: Canyon Country CA
Posts: 19
Ya I was gonna say no on cross draw unless its infront of the holster because I was taught as well, its a off hand weapon...always leave your gun hand free.
rudeboy3 is offline  
Old August 30, 2010, 12:09 AM   #41
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
When used against your opponent's joints (knees, elbows, etc.), batons are devastating weapons indeed. The "knob" at the end concentrates the force of the blow - making it extremely effective, even for people who might not be able to swing it with lots of force. It's certainly easier to carry and conceal than most any other impact device.

It's not legal to carry them where I live, so I don't do so, but wouldn't hesitate to carry one were it legal.
csmsss is offline  
Old August 30, 2010, 01:08 PM   #42
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
Only saw the tonfa in kung fu movies back in the dark ages. On permanent shore patrol I carried my 45 weak side and my nightstick strong side. Spent a lot of time in the paddy wagon going from point to point and taking the stick out and laying it on the seat was easier than taking my pistol out or trying to adjust the duty belt. I kept getting a lot of grief about it from my chief and some funny looks from the officers but nobody made me change.

My partner was a marine who was into karate and I was on the Navy boxing team so we used to drill with each other, anything I know about using a night stick I learned from him and I suspect he didn't show me everything.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old August 31, 2010, 02:27 PM   #43
hagar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2000
Location: Colombia, SC
Posts: 516
Never carried a baton, but did carry a sjambok with me more than once. Never used it on anything but fierce dogs, and it worked better than anything else would have. It also is not considered an impact weapon, it will hurt like hell but will not kill anybody. I did see my friend, who was a major in the South African Police then, put his to good use more than once. A lot of people will dare you to shoot them, but very few would volunteer to be beat by one of these..
__________________
I don't have time for busy people
hagar is offline  
Old September 1, 2010, 03:05 PM   #44
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
Quote:
A lot of people will dare you to shoot them, but very few would volunteer to be beat by one of these..
Amen to that. I have one hanging on the pegboard in my shop and when questioned I tell them a little bit about its historical use and traditional material, (mine is some kind of hard rubber). One hard slap against the wall or on the bench wakes them up right nicely, never had to use it but I sure don't want anybody using it on me. I'd rather be hit by a 2x4. I have survived that a couple of times and its not fun but at least I was able to grab onto it and wrestle it away.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12274 seconds with 9 queries