The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 24, 2010, 02:57 PM   #51
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,842
Quote:
Might I suggest a civilian version of the taser?
I'll tell you that I'm no fan at all of tasers. Personally, I prefer stunguns. Tasers require aim, and you only get one shot. There are all kinds of stun guns, even some that are disabled if the attacker wrestles it away from you. They are not effective on everyone 100% of the time, but they are very effective on most people, contrary to what you might here. Don't forget, a .45 slug isn't effective on everyone either.

You would never hear anyone in this forum recomend a Liberator Pistol for self defense. Why? Because they are not accurate and are basically a single shot pistol. A stun gun is basically the same thing, just harder to use and less effective. A stungun, stun baton, etc. is simply a better non-gun tool for self defense, in my opinion.
Skans is online now  
Old August 24, 2010, 03:20 PM   #52
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,686
There are multishot tasers now - if they have reached the civilian market - I don't know.

Having been shocked with the standard handheld ones in some H2H, I don't recommend someone who is not a physical titan trusting in one. They are used for compliance as compared to disabling.

You want a distance weapon and/or some reasonable H2H training.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 03:51 PM   #53
siggygirl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 236
I carefully deliberated on the taser. In my state that is not considered "deadly force" so it made it more appealing. However, it seems that 8 feet (which is the IDEAL distance I'd have) is not enough room to separate the probes enough. The officer suggested that at first but when we chatted it through, he withdrew the suggestion. This guy was thinking through things quite thoroughly out loud so I got to see his reasoning, and he couldn't find any situation or arrangement where a firearm would be helpful. On the contrary, he said to carry it into the office. Shut the door. Lock it in the gun safe. So when I hit the panic button and dispatch is on the line (if I get a chance to dial 911), and they ask about weapons, I can say "yes there is a handgun locked in a gun safe in xyz location". He says they'll assume the person is armed but it will be one less firearm for them to worry about. He agreed that when I leave I should put the firearm back in the holster to get to the car and carry 100% of the time after that.

Whew! I just rearranged my office by myself. My Feng Shui consultant would say my desk is not in the ultimate "power position", however, for me, the power position is the one closest to the exit! I flipped the arrangement so the potential attacker is as far away from the door as possible and I'm right next to it.
siggygirl is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 03:59 PM   #54
siggygirl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 236
Hey everyone, thanks for help. PLEASE no references to my profession.
siggygirl is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 04:38 PM   #55
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,842
Quote:
Having been shocked with the standard handheld ones in some H2H, I
I see your point, I'd agree that you do need some level of training to use one effectively. If you think you are just going to hold a stungun out in front of you and threaten someone with the "snap..snap..snap" sound, it would be all to easy to smack it out of the victim's hand. But, with a little training, it could be a very effective tool. I've never tried H2H combat with stun guns, but it would be interesting.
Skans is online now  
Old August 24, 2010, 05:30 PM   #56
Magnum-PI
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Posts: 37
I dont get it. No references to your profession? We dont even know what you do or where you work. You are just an anonymous alias on a message board. How would we know your profession?

In any event, I thought it over and would probably have a ASP baton. If something were to happen, then whip it out, swing it around wildly while heading for the exit door. A baton would give you enough time to get out of dodge.

One time I had a roommate who was trying to get in my face. He was banging on my door. I took out my 3-cell Maglite, opened the door and whipped it around wildly like a mad-man. He backed up and I closed the door. Then I headed out the backdoor to my car because I know he probably called the cops. While I was out, the cops came and there was no case because I was not there. I believed I was in the right, but like I said before, when the cops come and find out that you were pointing or swinging a weapon...then you might find yourself with more trouble then you bargained.
Magnum-PI is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 05:48 PM   #57
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,842
Quote:
You are just an anonymous alias on a message board. How would we know your profession?
I think this was meant to people she PM'ed.
Skans is online now  
Old August 24, 2010, 07:51 PM   #58
siggygirl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 236
Yes Skans your assessment is partially correct. I have PM'd with a few people who know the specifics of my situation. It's easy for them to forget not to mention it when posts talk about how not dangerous my situation is. It is very dangerous. The post has since been removed but was well intentioned. The point of that post was that people in my profession get killed all the time, unpredictably, and with very little warning. Sorry if I'm confusing people but it's important that key words that can be searched are not included in posts. I know it seems paranoid but trust me, it's warranted. I picked up some pepper gel today. Works on contact, only gets worse when you try to wipe it off. Also gun safe that can be discreetly hidden in office. Congratulate me on leaving the gun shop without the beautiful Sig P230 I handled multiple times today I'm learning impulse control.
siggygirl is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 08:28 PM   #59
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Skans:

The secret is she is actually a secret ninja assassin for a group of Mars aliens in an alternate multiverse...

It is her business and the reasons are up to her and we need to respect that, who knows she could be a famous movie star...
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 08:40 PM   #60
siggygirl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 236
Oh my God! My cover is blown.... I AM a movie star alien ninja working as a double secret spy! You guessed it. . But now I'm armed with nailed 2x4s, Raid, bear spray, a revolver, a police baton, a deadly pen, a fire extinguisher, a really bright and stunning flashlight, a taser, a stun gun, a hot cup of coffee and a cop best friend. So I should be good. If not I can feign illness, throw up on my attacker, stare them down with my secret mind control powers and run like hell. And as a trailing last resort, I can consider Aqua-net and praying.
siggygirl is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 08:44 PM   #61
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
OOps, sorry I didnt mean to blow your cover....
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 24, 2010, 09:12 PM   #62
1776 Patriat
Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2010
Location: Ga
Posts: 41
Just get some Cop Top 'foam' pepper spray in the 2oz size. Cheaperthandirt.com has it.

Patriot
1776 Patriat is offline  
Old August 27, 2010, 05:08 PM   #63
Eagle0711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2010
Posts: 782
Siggygirl: Whatever you decide on keep it to yourself. Suprise is important if you are to prevail. If a gun isn't possible, please consider a knife. You don't need to spend thousands on SECRET techniques. Michael Janich has excellant DVDs. A knife makes no noise, but you must learn to open a folder quietly, doesn't jam, run out of ammo, or require a permit. In OR knives are frowned on by LEO, but a female could pull it off. You can use the continuum of force to give a warning { after you have it against a body part }. The most important thing is don't let him see or hear it. His first clue may be a slice below his bellybutton with his guts falling to the ground. You'll have to change your attitude from one of fair play,give him a break type of thing to pure aggression. The key is SUPRISE,SPEED, RUTHLESSNESS,AGGRESSION,and DECEPTION. You have a lot of options, for ex. you could cut behind his knee as you walk away. Plus most men are protective of their private parts, so that is an excellant target. Sorry if this seems gross, but in your situation i'd go for it. Best, Lyle
Eagle0711 is offline  
Old August 27, 2010, 05:53 PM   #64
Steam Boat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 106
As Eagle0711 mentioned about a knife, check your state regulations. Even with a CHL, some states still consider a concealed knife illegal.
I know, strange but true.
Steam Boat is offline  
Old August 28, 2010, 01:34 AM   #65
Eagle0711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2010
Posts: 782
Dear Steam: Your'e correct. I live in ory-gun and the Sheriff,s office told me that I couldn't pack a knife with my CWP. Here it's socially acceptable your shoot an attacker if you are threatened with bodily harm. You can legally carry tactical folders or pocket knives. Anything with two edges, dirks, and butterfly knives are considered a dangerous weapon. They sell a lot of assisted openers so if they are not totally concealed they seem to be ok. I'd check the laws, I know a lot of cops don't even know. I don't know Siggygirls situation, but if a gun is out then a small razor sharp knife would beat nothing. I believe that If a female was in danger one could be deployed and be legal. Michael Janich addresses this subject, and his DVDs would be a good investment. If this were my daughter i'd surely help with what must be a difficult situation. Thanks, Lyle
Eagle0711 is offline  
Old August 31, 2010, 11:35 AM   #66
siggygirl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 236
Lyle, wow your description of defense with a knife woke me up this AM. It's funny how different types of lethal force inspire different feelings in me. A few months back I started considering a handgun for defense, not just pleasure. I trained some and felt ready. Then when I did some training with my shotgun and saw what buckshot did to the target, I saw a person instead and felt unsure if I could live with the aftermath. Strangely enough, same feeling with a knife. But when I think it through, dead is dead. Shouldn't matter much how I get them there as long as it was required. It took more reading and contemplation after the shotgun experience to fully accept (as much as anyone can) that dead is dead and sometimes it is going to be them or me. I choose them.

I did consider a concealed knife, of less than 3 inches. The good news is that I have decided on a multi-system completely feasible defense approach for the office. But like another poster suggested, I'm keeping it to myself. This thread was enormously helpful in me becoming prepared. Thanks all!
siggygirl is offline  
Old August 31, 2010, 01:57 PM   #67
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
Knives need more training than firearms to be effective in SD situations. One of the biggest issues with knives is that females carry them, think they are safe, and are easily disarmed because they are overpowered and don't know how to use them. I've even seen females carrying the "wrong" type of knives (box cutters, flat edged 2-inch buck knives etc). The "right" type of knife is built for the purpose of maiming, has serrations (interesting bit, knives with serrations are much better stabbers because a flat edged knife will create a vacuum in the body and be extremely hard to pull out after the first stab), is fixed, and is as long as can be reasonably carried. Obviously laws get in the way of those last two, so most SD knives end up being 3-4" folders with serrations. Grips/handles are equally important.

I took a HTH course with a former Israeli Drill Sergeant. Part of the course was unarmed knife defense. He imparted some wisdom when it comes to knife attacks. There are only two types: HTH combat in a formal military setting, and crimes of passion. Crimes of passion is what we would focus on here. When you see a stabbing on the news, it's never the victim was stabbed three times, or 5 times, or even 10 times. They are always stabbed dozens of times. This is because if someone is stabbing someone else, it's because they are mad, heartbroken, drugged up, etc beyond reason. As been alluded to by other posters, knife crime is almost always extremely brutal and violent. But we can use this to our advantage. The biggest advantage is that rarely do people die from one stab. This takes time, is very noisy, and is usually something a person with a little knowledge can fight back against. In fact, this former IDF Sergeant claimed, it takes, on average, seven stabs to kill someone. Remember, this is a crime of passion, not a trained operative assassinating someone in the dead of night with a Rambo knife. They will not know where to stab (they probably won't care), how to stab, or how to defend should they meet resistance. They may try to use a non-SD knife in the attack, further limiting their effectiveness. Defending unarmed against a knife attack is surprisingly simple when you keep in mind those factors. But we aren't talking about a knife defense, we are talking about a knife attack.

I carry a knife, specifically a Leatherman Skeletool, with serrations. I would never dream of using it in self defense except as a very very last resort.

SD Knife classes are available. I know Glenn knows some people who do them, or at least I think I remember him posting something about it a while back. These classes are a necessity should anyone decide to carry a knife in self defense because of the intricacies and "personality" of knife combat.
__________________
gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner
Sefner is offline  
Old August 31, 2010, 02:08 PM   #68
Eagle0711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2010
Posts: 782
Siggygirl,congragulations for making the effort to protect yourself. Other posters have offered you some good options. That's why wer'e here. The knife could work for you for many reasons. You should be on firm legal ground with the length described. You don't have to stab or slash if you choose not to. The knife can be used as a fistload to add power to a punch, or a pommel[ butt end ] strike. You don't have to worry about hurting someone in the next room. Even the blade allows you the option of a minor injury thru death. You can use your femininity to get close, and you probably know the male ego is easily exploited. The bottom line is have a plan and make sure it's them laying in the ground and not you. Sounds like you are headed for success. Good luck, Lyle
Eagle0711 is offline  
Old August 31, 2010, 02:20 PM   #69
CMichael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 1,516
Call the police.
CMichael is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10736 seconds with 9 queries