The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 9, 2010, 06:58 PM   #1
HKFan9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2,732
New to NFA game, process on converting AR-15 to a SBR.

I have been in love with firearms since I can remember. I own quite a few, some hunting, some protection, some just plain fun. I sell firearms at a local retailer for a second job. I just recently purchased a Stag Arms A3 AR-15 with a 16 inch carbine barrel.

I was interested in doing a SBR upper for it. Mainly my idea was to buy a AR-15 complete pistol upper for it. I know there is ATF paperwork to go along with it. I also know a class 3 store front in my area already but figured I would ask on here first.

I want to be able to switch between my regular 16'' upper, along with the SBR upper.

I just wanted someone on here to walk me through the steps of doing this legally... I know I can simply go into work and order a AR-15 pistol upper... but legally I could not install it on my rifle lower... but I also wasn't sure if procession of the pistol upper while I am waiting on the ATF paperwork is illegal, because of that whole "intent to build" thing.

If someone can please explain simply the steps that need to be taken... even if you just want to do a simple ordered list. This is my first time dealing with an NFA item, eventually I want to purchase a suppressor as well, but first I would like a SBR.

Also I live in PA where it is all good and legal. Thanks
HKFan9 is offline  
Old August 9, 2010, 09:22 PM   #2
flight954
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2006
Location: Cypress, Texas
Posts: 933
Get a NFA Trust drawn up by a lawyer or do it yourself with Quicken Willmaker.
Fill out a Form 1 then write a $200 check and mail it all (copy of trust) to the BATFE.
Wait
When approved, get your lower receiver engraved with the name of your trust.
Then start getting into suppressors, SMG's and SBS
flight954 is offline  
Old August 9, 2010, 09:31 PM   #3
David Hineline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 1999
Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska
Posts: 704
yes talk to the local C3 dealer and find out if your CLEO signs off on the forms.

For the first time, I would buy a factory SBR from your local dealer to build up a rappor with him so he thinks you are something other than a time wasting moron, even though you will spend more money, putting an expert in your pocket will pay off in the long run.

If you can't get the cleo signature at you primary home or secondary residence, then contact a lawyer and set up a proper trust or corporation rather than filling out one yourself from the back of a cereal box like many do. Those folks really don't have a clue the legal scrutiny they are bringing upon themselves.
David Hineline is offline  
Old August 10, 2010, 11:24 PM   #4
Sasquatch in MN
Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 88
Engraving

Make sure you send your lower off to be engraed before you get your approved Form 4 back. One the Tax stamp is issued, your lower becomes a SBR, an NFA firearm, not a Title 1 firearm.

If your engraver can do this while you wait, then it's a moot point.

Have fun!! The SBR's are a BLAST.
__________________
Making the world a better place, one rifle at a time. Visit us online at www.RCArms.com
Sasquatch in MN is offline  
Old August 11, 2010, 05:18 PM   #5
GoingQuiet
Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2010
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 89
Sasquatch - you are WRONG.

DO NOT ENGRAVE reciever before the tax stamp gets in.

I spoke with Rob Howard at NFA branch about this. If your tax stamp gets turned down for whatever reason - you've already altered the firearm. That was what I was told.
__________________
FFL/SOT Melbourne, FL - Sales by appointment. sales@goingquiet.com
Sig Sauer Stocking Dealer
Silencerco Stocking Distributor
GoingQuiet is offline  
Old August 11, 2010, 06:26 PM   #6
VUPDblue
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2005
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 1,978
Quote:
Sasquatch - you are WRONG.

DO NOT ENGRAVE reciever before the tax stamp gets in.

I spoke with Rob Howard at NFA branch about this. If your tax stamp gets turned down for whatever reason - you've already altered the firearm. That was what I was told.
OK, so you have altered the lower, so what? It doesn't affect anything (save maybe the value) by having your Name, City, State on there. I always engrave mine while I wait on the form to process. I don't forsee a single problem with having your info engraved on there, even if your form is rejected. No offense to him, but Mr. Howard is an examiner, not a layer. I liken this to asking a beat cop about estate law.

And to address Sasquatch, the rifle would only need to be engraved if it was built on a Form1. If it was transferred on a Form4, there would be no need for engraving. HTH
__________________
Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

Last edited by VUPDblue; August 11, 2010 at 09:35 PM.
VUPDblue is offline  
Old August 13, 2010, 06:19 PM   #7
Sasquatch in MN
Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 88
"And to address Sasquatch, the rifle would only need to be engraved if it was built on a Form1. If it was transferred on a Form4, there would be no need for engraving. HTH "

Oh yeah, that's a Form 1. Can't believe I crossed that one up.

As for engraving, if you wait until you have your tax stamp in hand, you now have a NFA Firearm (SBR). Even without the upper in place, it's legally a SBR. Just how would you propose to send your NFA item to an engraver (out of state?) and how would you propose to have your NFA item sent back to you?

If you do it before the stamp, you can ship yourself and receive back directly as it's a Title 1 Rifle. No biggie. I do not think that shipping an NFA item is quite that simple. I always had mine engraved before the stamp arrives.

Don
__________________
Making the world a better place, one rifle at a time. Visit us online at www.RCArms.com

Last edited by Sasquatch in MN; August 13, 2010 at 07:42 PM.
Sasquatch in MN is offline  
Old August 13, 2010, 06:43 PM   #8
Young.Gun.612
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 400
Sasquatch,

You still live in MN? I thought most NFA weapons weren't allowed in Minnesota? If this isn't the case, color me ecstatic! What NFA stuff is legal in MN?
Young.Gun.612 is offline  
Old August 13, 2010, 07:38 PM   #9
Sasquatch in MN
Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 88
NFA items are OK in MN with some restrictions.

SBR is OK
SBS not sure, never looked into it.
DD Not sure, never looked into it.
Silencer, thought no, but have seen several here in state at ranges.
MG is OK as long as on the C&R list, Mfg prior to 1945 (possibly 46), and in original configuration.

Don
__________________
Making the world a better place, one rifle at a time. Visit us online at www.RCArms.com
Sasquatch in MN is offline  
Old August 14, 2010, 12:46 AM   #10
HKFan9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2,732
Why would a normal AR-15 lower be considered an NFA rifle after the Form 1 is cleared is my question, plus where does it need to be engraved at... I know a lot of engravers locally or is a specific spot it needs to be engraved.
HKFan9 is offline  
Old August 14, 2010, 12:58 AM   #11
David Hineline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 1999
Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska
Posts: 704
rifle is a NFA regulated firearm when it is in the short configuration.

Engraving is required on the receiver or barrel, so if you wanted 10 different barrels for your receiver you would need 10 engravings.
David Hineline is offline  
Old August 14, 2010, 07:14 AM   #12
VUPDblue
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2005
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 1,978
Quote:
Engraving is required on the receiver or barrel, so if you wanted 10 different barrels for your receiver you would need 10 engravings.
But that's not to say that you are required to have 10 engravings. If you engrave the receiver, you can swap barrels at will, there is no need to engrave each one. However if you choose to have the barrel be your engraved spot, then you'd need to make sure that any barrel you have on the rifle is engraved.
__________________
Silencers have NEVER been illegal !
VUPDblue is offline  
Old August 14, 2010, 01:36 PM   #13
Sasquatch in MN
Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 88
barrel swapping

Remember also to send a letter of intent to use different length barrels and/or calibers to the NFA branch unless you filled your form 1 out with multiple lengths / calibers detailed.

I registered my SBR as one caliber one length, so the letter of intent was necessary.

Don
__________________
Making the world a better place, one rifle at a time. Visit us online at www.RCArms.com
Sasquatch in MN is offline  
Old August 16, 2010, 11:28 AM   #14
demigod
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,129
Quote:
Sasquatch - you are WRONG.

DO NOT ENGRAVE reciever before the tax stamp gets in.

I spoke with Rob Howard at NFA branch about this. If your tax stamp gets turned down for whatever reason - you've already altered the firearm. That was what I was told.
Huh?

This is typical ATF. Ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers.

1. You can engrave whatever you want on your lower... regardless of whether or not your F1 is approved or if you even plan to register it with the NFA at all.

2. You can transfer any firearm to your trust whether or not it's a Title 2 item. And thus you could engrave all of your guns with your Trust info if you wanted to. It has NOTHING to do with the NFA.

Although people commonly engrave their lowers when they SBR them. There is NO REASON you couldn't engrave your lowers just because you're into engraving or something.
demigod is offline  
Old August 16, 2010, 12:22 PM   #15
Raven Armament
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2010
Location: Midwest
Posts: 45
Quote:
As for engraving, if you wait until you have your tax stamp in hand, you now have a NFA Firearm (SBR). Even without the upper in place, it's legally a SBR
That is some of the stupidest stuff I've heard on NFA weapons in my life.

Your Form 1 tax stamp is an APPROVAL TO MANUFACTURE AN NFA WEAPON. A weapon is not made until it is configured and assembled in that specified manner.

Paperwork is not the manufacturing of a firearm. Ever.

Engraving is part of the manufacturing process.

Once you assemble the firearm in a SBR configuration, it's an SBR. Paperwork or no paperwork.

Get the F1 approved, then engrave, then assemble to SBR configuration and go on with life.

This is not that complicated and I don't understand all the drama surrounding this issue.
Raven Armament is offline  
Old August 16, 2010, 01:30 PM   #16
demigod
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,129
Quote:
I don't understand all the drama surrounding this issue.
There will always be heated debate on these topics.

There's so many rumors and mis info out there, at times it's like a comedy skit.

The funny thing is if you're lawfully using your guns... when it's all said and done... with the exception of internut experts/commandos, no one gives a cr@p about your papers, engravings, etc.

I've had guns temporarily taken by the Police Department (long story - no criminal reason on my part) and they didn't even care about seeing tax stamps and such.
demigod is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09805 seconds with 9 queries