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Old July 31, 2010, 03:53 PM   #1
bfskinnerpunk
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Glock 19 Rounds +P on defense rounds or no?

I have a couple of G19's for home defense (located conveniently in the house).

I'm just learning about varieties of ammo...and am noticing that many of the highly recommended defensive rounds come in both plain and +p.... and +p+(?).

The +p stuff is priced at a premium (as I noticed on "ammoseek").

Given that many feel that the 9mm is a bit "light", is it reasonable for a Glock 19 owner to prefer +p ammo?

I'm trying to find the good stuff and at the best possible price. Gold dot, Golden Saber, Winchester Ranger, and Corbon are on my radar.

Any advice on
A) where to find the best stuff for the best price?
B) Are there any SIGNIFICANT problems with any of the rounds mentioned?
C) I don't reload, but if I did, is it possible to recreate the exact same rounds as these premium defense rounds? (and for much cheaper?)

It looks like the Gold dots, Sabers, etc.... with +p, are in the 60 cent range per round.

Wow! If that's a fair price, I'll stock up, but I want to be sure that there is a real deal advantage of +p.

Thanks.
BF

...and I have seen these kinds of discussion around, but none that address it in this way...at least, not that I have found.
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Old July 31, 2010, 04:15 PM   #2
madmag
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Quote:
A) where to find the best stuff for the best price?
B) Are there any SIGNIFICANT problems with any of the rounds mentioned?
C) I don't reload, but if I did, is it possible to recreate the exact same rounds as these premium defense rounds? (and for much cheaper?)
First some general answers.
-There is no reason not to use +P in your G19.

-I find the price for good SD non +P is about the same for the same ammo in +P...or close at least.

A) Best price: Your local small gun store or gun show if one is close. Or shooting range. Or mail order.

B) All you mentioned are good rounds. I use 124g +P Gold Dot, but the others are good.

C) I am not a re-loader, so I will bow to others to answer.

Quote:
Given that many feel that the 9mm is a bit "light", is it reasonable for a Glock 19 owner to prefer +p ammo?
I prefer +P in my 9mm for SD, but I am not un-comfortable with good non +P. You know story, it's all about shot placement.

Quote:
are in the 60 cent range per round.
Sounds good to me.

Last edited by madmag; July 31, 2010 at 04:22 PM.
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Old July 31, 2010, 04:55 PM   #3
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9mm in +P put out energy readings similar to those of the .45ACP. So, I would imagine that the +P/+P+ 9mm ammo is likely to produce more damage. And, there's that hydrostatic-shock thing.
This is my take on it though. Worth every penny you put on it.
When it comes to the large-caliber auto-loaders. I feel it's almost splitting hairs between them. You can really dissect each of the large ACP rounds, and, you'll find some variation here and there...pros and cons, etc...but, heaven forbid, in a real world SD scenario, I have to wonder how much those little variations here & there will serve up. One [constant] in the (handgun & self-defense subject). You must be fast, and accurate. This rule applies from the draw to the follow-up shots. Emphasis on "follow-up shots"! They're acp rounds. Not 12ga 00. Not .308 coming from a 26" barrel.
.357SIG, 9mm, +P/+P+, .40S&W, .45acp, etc, etc...splitting hairs, in my humble opinion, when it really comes down to the average SD scenario.

With all that said. I carry regular ole 9mm load. I like Hornady's Critical Defense, and Gold Dot. Those are my personal favorite SD rounds. I don't like hollow-points that have a sharp edge where the jacketing meets the cup, unless there is something to smooth the chambering process, such as the Hornady CD.
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Old July 31, 2010, 05:22 PM   #4
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Before choosing one top SD ammo over the others, you should probably try some of the different brands to see which one works best in your handgun.

Test for accuracy, and test for reliable function. Even a Glock can jam if it doesn't like that ammo, although it's rare. Ammo is only one part of your SD firearm plan, so make sure it works with the rest.

Saying that you're "splitting hairs" will make your choice seem less important, but if you ever REALLY need to use that ammo, you want the biggest, strongest half of the hair on your side.

Review the 1986 FBI Miami/Dade County shootout for evidence of that. That one incident causes a whole bunch of improvements in ammo, cartridge chamberings, and SD firearms.

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Old July 31, 2010, 05:32 PM   #5
Bill DeShivs
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There is no need for anything other than a good, reliable hollowpoint bullet.
+P offers little real world advantage.
The Miami/Dade shootout resulted in the FBI using ammunition as a scapegoat for poor training and shooting.
Regular 9mm ammunition has adequate velocity for reliable expansion, and it has very adequate penetration.
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Old July 31, 2010, 05:41 PM   #6
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Unfortunately, as demonstrated repeatedly with doped up perps and enemy combatants in the sand boxes, the std 9mm isn't getting the job done as well as it was expected to. Most PDs, and many in the military have come to the conclusion that a semi-auto needs a caliber that starts with a '4' to obtain the necessary performance to deal with the issues. That's why the 40s&w is so popular with PDs and 45acps are the choice of special operations troops.

A 9mm+P or +P+ is just an attempt to soup up a marginal round, however, the result is increased recoil and blast for the shooter to learn to expect. In the +P+ version the blast and recoil make the 40s&w in that same platform look more appealing.
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Old July 31, 2010, 05:51 PM   #7
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I'm actually considering a Glock 20 (10mm) as my main "real deal" handgun.

With drop-in barrels, it might be the most flexible "multi-caliber" handgun made! (maybe?) Regardless, I like the idea of a 10mm.

That said, I don't buy into the "doped up" threat. Talk about a rare scenario!
Even with that, being doped up doesn't make you brave or even more tolerant of pain. I've seen coke-users downright fearful of their own shadow...and the paranoid pot user, too.

It would be nice, though, to completely disable a bad person as quickly as possible.

If the +p is insignificant, that's cool.

Looking at a 9mm...and holding it up next to my "self"... man, I can't imagine having something that blunt entering my flesh! ... and expanding?

Yeeeouch! I can promise you that I will stop all ongoing activity if you shoot me with a 9mm... even the cheap stuff.

I'm looking to stock pile some high quality ammo. Maybe today's prices are still a little high from the Obama scare or something... but I'm probably going to have to pay the price.

So with the price premium, I want to pay for quality... and not gimmicks.
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Old July 31, 2010, 06:02 PM   #8
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Find a premium JHP loading from a reputable company that functions 100% and is accurate from YOUR handgun, using your magazines and don't focus on factory published velocity and muzzle energy figures because there are too many variables to factor in. The cartridge with the highest velocity or most muzzle energy doesn't necessarily mean it's the best for your handgun..

Don't discount the 147 grain bullet weight because it offers excellent accuracy, penetration, and expansion potential without the excessive recoil and blast of the +P and +P+ cartridges, so always consider using them

W-W 147gr Ranger T
W-W 147gr PDX1 Bonded
R-P 147gr Golden Saber
Speer 147gr Gold Dot
Hornady 147gr XTP
Federal 147gr HST
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Old August 1, 2010, 02:11 AM   #9
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G19

I use Fed 115 JHP +P+ LE stuff. It is not the hottest of the LE ammo but was the best priced that I found.
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Old August 1, 2010, 06:51 AM   #10
CARGUY2244
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+p+ ammo

I shoot both a G19 and a G20.
I shop online at ammunitiontogo.com, georgia arms, and doubletap ammo.
Compare prices, it's an expensive ammo market. You can buy Fiocchi 115 jhp for $15/50 rds. They're not rated as +p, but they're equally hot. Federal 115's, +p+ LE, is a bit hotter, and about $20/50 rds. Speer Gold Dot 115's or 124s are bonded, meaning the copper won't separate from the lead, allowing total weight retention, and theoretically better penetration. They're all available at ammunitiontogo.com. Georgia Arms, when they have availability, makes an excellent 115 and 124 +p with a bonded bullet, and are about the best price I've found. The hottest ammo I've found is from Doubletap, and it's pricey. Also look at Corbon. They make a very hot DPX, which is bonded, and Powrball, which has a polymer hollowpoint, with a fmj profile, so feeding is always reliable.
In 10mm, make certain you get the full power loads, otherwise you might as well shoot a .40.
+p, and +p+ in any caliber offers an advantage. MOre important is a bonded bullert.
And DO NOT load your own defense ammo. It may be the single best way to get convicted in a self defense shooting. DAs feast on the guy with the secret recipe for killer ammo.
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Old August 1, 2010, 11:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARGUY2244
<edit>

And DO NOT load your own defense ammo. It may be the single best way to get convicted in a self defense shooting. DAs feast on the guy with the secret recipe for killer ammo.

Last edited by Rampant_Colt; August 1, 2010 at 01:11 PM.
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Old August 1, 2010, 11:20 AM   #12
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And DO NOT load your own defense ammo. It may be the single best way to get convicted in a self defense shooting. DAs feast on the guy with the secret recipe for killer ammo.
lol.

Can you please provide a link to show a court ruling that convicted a man who shot someone in self defense using his own ammo that otherwise would have been set free?

No?

I didn't think so. It sounds a little absurd when you put it that way, huh?

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Old August 1, 2010, 12:28 PM   #13
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That's a myth that gets circulated around the nets every so often.

There *was* a case a long time ago but someone else can do the legwork finding the link.
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Old August 1, 2010, 01:11 PM   #14
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I hardly even notice a difference in recoil or muzzle blast between the three Remington Golden Saber 9mm loads - 124gr, 124gr +P, and 147gr.. It's not until you step up to +P+ levels that blast and recoil start to factor in.

With the lighter overall weight and shorter barrel of the G19, extra range time practicing using +P+ would be a good idea if you plan on carrying +P+ ammunition in your handgun
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Old August 1, 2010, 02:12 PM   #15
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Thanks.... I ordered 250 rounds of +p golden saber from one of the sites mentioned above. I was too leery of an unknown name "Georgia Arms" to pull the trigger on that....oh, and they're out of stock!

I have heard those statements about not-buying ammo with menacing names.

Similarly, people with guard dogs have these issues.

When I lived in Florida, I worked with protection dogs as a side hobby. There was also this issue:
If you put a sign on fence yard that says, "warning, stay out! dangerous dog"... you are basically admitting that you own a dangerous dog and you are exposing the public to this menace. (let's just say the dog gets out, or some hapless individually naively jumps your fence, etc.)

By not having the sign, you may or may not be aware that your dog will bite and have chance at defending yourself in court.

So what do you do? Warn the public fairly with your sign?... the ethical thing to do. Or remove the sign for fear of lawyers?

In the end, I don't know how much of the "dangerous dog sign" rumor is true, and I don't know how much of the "killer ammo!" rumor is true either.

My hope is that they are both false!

With the bullets, you are clearly using deadly force regardless of the label.

BF
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Old August 1, 2010, 02:27 PM   #16
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I think there should be some clarification on what exactly +P and +P+ denotes. +P is a designation of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI), a group to which most reputable U.S. ammo makers belong. +P stands for plus pressure and means that a cartridge with this designation may be loaded up to 10% over its maximum standard pressure. The point of loading ammunition to higher pressure is that by doing so, higher velocities can often (though not always) be achieved. The +P designation is only recognized by SAAMI in three calibers: 9mm, .38 Special, and .45 ACP. Many manufacturers also list .38 Super Auto ammunition as +P, but it is actually loaded to standard pressure and the +P designation is added to prevent confusion with the older, lower pressure .38 ACP cartridge. I would not hesitate to fire 9mm +P or .45 ACP +P ammunition in a Glock.

+P+ is a different animal altogether and much greater care must be taken when selecting and firing +P+ ammunition. SAAMI does not officially recognize +P+ ammunition so the only thing that this designation can be counted on to denote is that the ammunition is loaded above maximum standard pressure and/or +P pressure but how far above is completely up to the manufacturer's discretion. Most U.S. ammo makers limit their +P+ loadings to Military and Law Enforcement contracts though certain distributors will sell it to civilians.

The danger in firing +P+ ammo is that with certain +P+ loadings in certain guns it is not safe. For example, one occasionally encounters Hirtenberger 124grn FMJ +P+ ammunition. This ammunition is intended for submachineguns line the HK MP5 and is not safe to fire in most handguns. Likewise, Federal has made .38 Special +P+ ammunition. While this ammo is loaded in .38 Special cases, it was actually intended to be fired in .357 Magnum revolver as Magnum ammunition was considered politically incorrect at the time. Firing such ammo in a small framed revolver or an older revolver would likely damage the gun and might even be unsafe.

In your Glock 19, I would reccomend firing +P+ ammunition only after careful research on the particular loading you are considering and then only in limited amounts. My self-defense loading of choice for my 9mm (a CZ-75) is Winchester Ranger-T 127grn +P+. I know that this is a law enforcement loading specifically intended for use in handguns. Even so, I've installed an extra-power recoil spring in my gun and only shoot very limited amounts of this ammo.

Quote:
I have heard those statements about not-buying ammo with menacing names.
Most such statements stem from the negative publicity over the infamous Winchester Black Talons. These were JHP bullets with a black coating called "lubalox" which was supposed to both enhance feed reliability and reduce barrel fouling. Also the bullet design of the Black Talon was engineered to be deeper penetrating than previous designs due to demand from law enforcement and was marketed as such. Unfortunately, Black Talons were used in a well publicized mass shooting (on an NYC subway IIRC) and because of the menacing name were villified by the media with labels such as "cop killer" and "surgeons nightmare". The media attention finally became so intense that Winchester discontinued the Black Talon and replaced with with loadings that had less menacing names like Supreme SXT and Ranger T. Most premium bullets these days have non-menacing names.

I wouldn't worry too much about legal ramifications from your choice of gun or ammunition. Both the Glock 19 and Remington Golden Saber are common, popular, and well respected in both civilian and law enforcement circles and should be easily defensible by a good lawyer. There are some alarmists here who will condemn nearly any type of gun or ammunition you can think of. I've personally seen people condemn semi-automatics, revolvers, rifles, shotguns, powerful cartridges, FMJ ammunition, handloads, and JHP ammunition as things that will get you crucified by an overly zealous prosecutor. In my opinion, so long as you use a gun and ammunition from well known and respected manufacturers in a relatively common caliber without heavy modification to either the gun or ammo, it's not anything to lose sleep over.
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Last edited by Webleymkv; August 1, 2010 at 02:56 PM.
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Old August 2, 2010, 06:02 PM   #17
Rampant_Colt
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124g +P Golden Sabers and Glock 19s go together like beer n pretzles
Speer's 124gr +P Gold Dot is another excellent 9mm SD cartridge..
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Old August 2, 2010, 07:42 PM   #18
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I find this interesting. Here's some ballistics for 45ACP:

Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
165 gr (10.7 g) Federal Premium Low Recoil JHP 1,060 ft/s (320 m/s) 412 ft·lbf
185 gr (12.0 g) Buffalo Bore JHP +P [3] 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 479 ft·lbf
200 gr (13 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 518 ft·lbf
230 gr (15 g) Speer Lawman FMJ 830 ft/s (250 m/s) 352 ft·lbf

Here's the ballistics for 9mm, check out the +P+ at the bottom:[/B]

7.45 g (115.0 gr) FMJ 390 m/s (1,300 ft/s) (420 ft·lbf)
8.00 g (123.5 gr) FMJ 360 m/s (1,200 ft/s) (382 ft·lbf)
9.1 g (140 gr) FMJ 305 m/s (1,000 ft/s) (309 ft·lbf)
9.5 g (147 gr) JHP 368 m/s (1,210 ft/s) (474 ft·lbf)
7.45 g (115.0 gr) JHP +P+ 435 m/s (1,430 ft/s) (519 ft·lbf)

When I look at this ballistic info, I don't see a marginal round out of the 9mm.
The +P+ looks lethally potent to me. Am I missing something?
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Old August 2, 2010, 08:43 PM   #19
LanceOregon
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Quote:
Wow! If that's a fair price, I'll stock up, but I want to be sure that there is a real deal advantage of +p.
Bfskinnerpunk:

Only girls and small children shoot +P 9mm ammo. All manly men that have lots of testosterone flowing in their veins instead only shoot +P+ ammo in their Glock 19's.

This is the ammo that you need to be shooting:

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