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Old July 28, 2010, 02:13 PM   #1
manther
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Whats this win m12 worth

What would you pay for this model 12?

I believe the serial number means its a '54. Seller is asking $525 out the door. May have been re-blued. Has poly choke. I know most people say its a personal choice. This gun is on my short list of guns I would like to own. It seemed to fit me well, and the action was smooth.






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Old July 28, 2010, 02:14 PM   #2
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Old July 28, 2010, 02:27 PM   #3
BigJimP
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In my area that's a $ 150 - $200 gun max .... no-where near the $525 he wants for it.

If it wasn't as clean as it is ....it would be way less around here.
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Old July 28, 2010, 02:30 PM   #4
manther
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Cool, I'm in Dallas Texas, where you at? Also why do you value it lower? The age?
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:00 PM   #5
eastbank
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reblue,poly choke and stock cut with recoil pad added. with each of thoses things done the value goes way down. its just a shooter now. and not worth anywhere near 525.00. here is a 12ga model 12 win. with a 28 inch full choke barrel in very good used condition i bought at a flea market this summer for 275.00 eastbank.
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:04 PM   #6
BigJimP
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I'm in Seattle ....the poly choke is a pretty big negative up here / or at least in my mind.

A buddy owns a gun shop and sells lots of used guns / but he tells me all the time - he can't sell these old pump guns with the poly chokes on them ...anyone who wants one - already has one ( or inherited it from the family ). He has a bunch of them on the floor / for guys that just want a cheap gun ....but the low end market on shotguns has been saturated by Remington 870 Express, Mossberg, etc with a bunch of new guns under $ 200 ....so its killed that low end re-sale market.

He gets a dozen a week or so coming in the door / asking him to buy them - and he passes on almost all of them ....unless its "really, really clean" ...and yours is / but he'd offer them $ 50 - $75 and try and sell it for $ 150 and drop it to $ 100 - $125 to get rid of it.

The model 12 is a popular gun / and we can get into a big debate among guys on the forum on what is the best pump shotgun ...and names like the model 12, Rem Wingmaster, Browning BPS will all come up ( at least among some of us older guys ).

My buddy Zippy13 on here / and others know more about the model 12's than I do ...but some of the older ones, you have to have a gunsmith fit a replacement barrel on them too - you can't just slap a new barrel on some of them.

There are just too many around / to demand a decent price in the used market - at least around here.
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:07 PM   #7
manther
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Thanks eastbank. That's just the kind of info I needed. So it looks re-blued to you too? I don't know how to tell it was re-blued, I just assumed so since it looked so clean for the age. Are some poly chokes factory installed? Thanks again for any advice/help. Also how low would the seller need to go before you'd part with your hard earned cash? I know BigJim said no more than $200.
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:10 PM   #8
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Cool thanks bigjim great info.
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:15 PM   #9
manther
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One last question. Since these guns are no longer made; and there is a huge cult-like following for them; is there a way to restore them that doesn't de-value them? I've heard many times re-bluing them downgrades the value. Is the desired thing to do just let them look old?
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:21 PM   #10
eastbank
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NO, all non factory modifiations detract from its value. at one time winchester would build you a gun any way you wanted it,poly choke included if you had the money. but most were not factory done. look at the made in usa on the barrel,you can see how the letters are dished out and take a look at the winchester proof marks on the top of the reciever and the top of the barrel where the go together,the little oval with a w p in it should be very crisp and well defined. i would not buy it as i just don,t like non factory refinishing and stocks cut off. on a factory gun all the letters should be sharp and crisp(except where normal wear would ocure threw use), if i were you i would look for a non refinished mod 12 as it will go up in value when compared to a refinished one. eastbank.
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:59 PM   #11
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If a good clean model 12 is on your short list - as you say ....

I'd recommend you look around for one that is clearly in "original condition" -- without the poly choke / and choked the way you want it -- for whatever you intend to use it for. I don't know how many of them came out of the factory with Full chokes, vs Modified or even Skeet ...but my hunch is 75% or more of them were made in Full Choke ....as field guns or even competition guns. Somebody with more knowledge of the competition history of model 12's may drop by ...and fill in the gaps in my knowledge ...

It wasn't really that long ago -- in the 1950's and 60's where a lot of national records were held by people shooting model 12's in Trap and Skeet especially. Lots of money / lots of titles were won with the model 12's -- long before screw in chokes came into being / and long before the Over Unders became dominant inthe 70's or so .../and there were some real fancy "pigeon grade" model 12's made ...with upgraded wood on them, etc that will easily sell in the $ 5,000 - $ 10,000 price range today.

But there are still a lot of the standard model 12's around / in original condition - especially in 12ga. In 28ga and .410 they will go up in a value a lot ...because a lot of guys my age had them when they were kids ...and want another one now ... I never had a model 12 / so I've just never been infatuated with them ...like I was with the older Brownings.
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Old July 28, 2010, 04:41 PM   #12
manther
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By my short list I meant that for my first shotgun (a gun I plan on hunting dove with), I plan on buying one of the following:

Win model 12
870 Wingmaster
Ithaca 37 featherlight
browning bps upland

Recently found this wingmaster too. Sticker says $355, he said he could work with me on the price. No idea what year it is.






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Old July 28, 2010, 05:07 PM   #13
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Personally, in a pump gun ....I prefer the Browning BPS. I have a couple of Hunter models, 28" barrels in 12 and 20ga. Mine are older / but still in very good shape ...killed a lot of birds and broke a lot of clays ...even though I don't shoot them much anymore / they are still fun to take to the gun club once in a while for a round of Skeet or whatever ...

Since they have screw in chokes ...in most any shotgun made since the early 1980's or so / I think you'll find a newer gun to be a lot more adaptable to a number of things ( for Dove, or clays, or whatever ...) .... and for those guns I usually buy a Full choke, an Improved Modified, a Modified, an Imp Cyclinder, and a Cyclinder choke ( carry them in a small fishing lure box ). Most of the newer Field guns ( Field speaks to the style and angle of the stock usually ) come with a Full, Modified and Cyclinder choke.

I think the BPS Hunter model these days retails for around $ 525 ...but I think its a lot of gun for the money ...and there are some on the used market of course too. But for a gun that you may keep for 50+ yrs ....
$ 525 isn't that much ( like $ 11 a year ..) ....

I like the BPS because its stock is "cast" neutral. I like the position of the safety / and the fact that it ejects out of the bottom. Browning is putting some decent wood on them and their finish is pretty tough. The action on the BPS is very smooth. I think the BPS is very comparable to the 870 Wingmaster in every respect / in fact I like it better than the Wingmaster.

But no matter what you decide / good luck ....and have fun with the search ...for this one, and the next one ...and the ....(even one gun per gague isn't quite enough for most of us / we're just junkies ...)
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Old July 28, 2010, 05:44 PM   #14
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To my way of looking at Model 12s, there are three categories: bangers, shooters and collectors.

Collectors are pretty obvious, for the big bucks they have to be original and almost looking like they are new in the box. The rarer the gun the higher the price it will demand. Should you find an original Model 12 in factory 28-ga, you've struck gold.

Shooters are the nice guns that aren't collector quality. A Model 12 that's had some parts changed and refinished wood and metal isn't a collector's item, but it's still a fine shooter. It's been a while since I was in the market for a Model 12, but the last time I was looking for a shooter, all I could find were bangers, and many of them in 16-ga. Eventually, I found a nice Pigeon grade trap on consignment at my LGS. The owner wanted $1,200 and I made him a 90-day offer of $1,000 -- after 90 days I got a different gun. A few months later, our club's rangemaster picked up the same gun for $850.

The bangers are the guns like one you're looking at and the ones on the floor of BigJimP's LGS. If all you are after is a shooter, get a Browning BPS (or Benelli or Wingmaster). If you have your heart set on a Model 12, find a nice shooter or get the best deal you can on a banger and send it off to Simmons to be made into a like new shooter to your exact specifications. As my friend, Big Jim, mentioned, hacking a Model 12's barrel for a poly choke conversion is a big negative.
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Old July 28, 2010, 05:53 PM   #15
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I have collected Winchester model 12's for more years than I care to admit, so I have some knowledge on the subject. The model 12 is the finest built pumpgun ever built. They were milled steel parts, and walnut stocks. Each was built like no other shotgun. While newer designs work well and should work for the average Joe, model 12's construction is so above all others that you have to be a conisoir of quality to appreciate them. The price they are asking is well above market value. I just purchaced one in excellent original condition built in 1942 with a solid rib barrel, but with a non factory polychoke. I bought it off Gunbroker for $350.
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Old July 28, 2010, 06:22 PM   #16
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[So it looks re-blued to you too? I don't know how to tell it was re-blued, I just assumed so since it looked so clean for the age]

Many here, and on other forums, can easily "tell", from years of experience of looking at both original finish & refinished guns.

That Model 12's level of polish, beneath the bling bluing, is better/different than factory polishing for a run-of-the-mill M12.
Pigeon Grades, and others than went through the Custom Shop, were much different from the "line" guns.

The refinished stock's also E-Z, even w/o the pad/shortening - due to the type finish. (hint: The M12 wood/finish should look like the Remington's)

BTW - If you can grab that Remington pump for $300 or less, you'll be golden - IMHO the metal fit/finish was much better than later versions.

.
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Old July 28, 2010, 06:41 PM   #17
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there is nothing wrong with a nice rem. 870, i have and use a 870 light contour 12ga., it is a early one with choke tubes and no J-lock. if you want to go with less cost a rem. 870 express may be for you,less than 300.00 brand new. eastbank.
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Old July 28, 2010, 06:55 PM   #18
manther
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OK so it sounds like that m12 is a banger at a nice shooters price. Thank you.

Petahw, let me make sure I understand one thing you've said. Are you saying that wingmaster looks like an older one? The seller said he thinks its a late 70's or 80's model. It looks brand new to me.

I'm not looking to go cheap. I don't mind spending 400-600.

I got a bead on a bps upland that is 95% looking for around $300 also, but I don't have any pics yet.
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Old July 28, 2010, 10:33 PM   #19
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That Wingmaster looks late 70's to me. I am sure a serial number check would be easy enough to verify.

I wish I would not have sold my late 70's Wingmaster. I think I sold it for $175 and it was like new with a modified barrel.

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Old July 29, 2010, 05:33 AM   #20
Jdomin
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m12

model 12 reblued over the Remington
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Old July 29, 2010, 06:23 AM   #21
eastbank
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i like them all including the model 37 ithaca and they all have plues and minuses. if you shop around you can buy a win 12,rem 870 or a ithaca in good condition for around 300.00 that will last a life time of hunting. for all the guns i have mentioned i have gotten for 300.00 or less. here are two ithaca,s i have and use,a 16ga solid rib and a later 12ga with vent rib. eastbank.
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Old July 29, 2010, 11:56 AM   #22
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You either need the seller to knock those prices down by about half or you need a new seller/dealer. Even in over-priced Massachusetts those prices are very, very, very optimistic.
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Old July 29, 2010, 12:13 PM   #23
manther
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Those Ithaca's look nice. There is a pawn shop selling an Ithaca that looks like the bottom one in your pictures. The pawn shop only wants $180 for it, and I think I can get them down to $150, but I have stayed away from it because there is rust and debris inside the receiver. I am willing to buy older used shotguns, but I don't want a project.
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Old July 29, 2010, 01:42 PM   #24
eastbank
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if he will let you take the barrel off and spray gum out into the action and work the action several times and then spray again,you will be surpized what junk and debris comes out. if there is no major rust left in the action i would look at it closley, it could be a real good deal at that price. eastbank.
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Old July 29, 2010, 02:18 PM   #25
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There are too many good used guns out there ....

I would recommend you pass on anything that had rust in it - especially if you intend to keep this gun a long time - like you seem to be indicating.

Shotguns 11-10-08 013.jpg

Here is a photo of my two pump guns ( both bought in the late 1970's ) - the top one is the 12ga / bottom one the 20ga - both Browning BPS Hunter models, 28" barrels. I couldn't tell you how many birds and clays they have each taken ....and they've both been thru 2 boys, learning to shoot, and several grandkids now ....with conservatively 25,000 shells each thru them...

If they were for sale (and they're not) they would be spotless inside and out ...not full of debris -- let alone rust ... / there are some cosmetic nicks on the stocks ( but not many ) ...considering all the use they've gotten over 30+ years ( and from 75 - 78? or so, the 12ga BPS was the only shotgun I had / so it did everything ) ...
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