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Old July 16, 2010, 09:22 AM   #76
Maromero
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You pull it out to use it.

Interesting thread. I was taught that you only bring a gun into a situation if you are going to use it. Never to show it, never to scare someone but only to use it. Using it means fire the gun. You don't have to fire the gun every single time you draw your handgun but every time I draw the sole intention is to immediately stop a threat. If the situation then changes, act accordingly. You will only have a spit second to react so if you happen to shoot someone, the facts have to be clear that you reasonably believed your life or the life of another was in danger and that's why there is someone lying on the floor dead due to lead poisoning.

P.S. Someone started a thread about why we post. I do because of threads like this one.
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Old July 16, 2010, 10:07 AM   #77
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranburr
Frank, let me ask your expert advice. If you can't get away from a bad situation what do you do? If someone is in your house what do you do? Now this last one I understand why you may differ from me due to the state you live in. What do you do when your property is being stolen? I think many people are missing my point here. I am not pulling my gun until I feel I have absolutely no other choice.....
Of course I'd deal with the situation as I've been trained and be prepared, among other things, to appropriately use lethal force. But that doesn't mean that as the situation unfolds things might not change to make the use of lethal force inappropriate.

That's all this thread is about: just because you've appropriately drawn your gun doesn't mean that you will fire it.

As Glenn has pointed out, a gun is fired in only about 5% of successful defensive gun uses. And in posts 66 (link) and 70 we see some real life examples of guns being properly drawn, but not ultimately fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranburr
...I think everyone should attend Southnarc's courses. They are very eye opening in just how quickly someone can be on you and disabling your pistol or disarming you before you can get a shot off....
Yes, things can happen quickly. But at the same time, every encounter will not be the same. One reason I think training and good practice is so important is that in an emergency we will want to be sufficiently familiar with our weapons to be able to manage them properly without conscious thought so our focus will be on our OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide and Act) loop and not on trying to figure out how to make our guns work.

The fact is that there is always the possibility that one will face a situation in which it is reasonably necessary to draw his gun for self defense or the defense of an innocent, but it will not then be necessary to fire it. As Glenn has pointed out, in posts 24 and 56, a gun is fired in only about 5% of successful defensive gun uses. And in posts 66 (link) and 70 we see some real life examples of guns being properly drawn, but not ultimately fired.
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Old July 16, 2010, 10:11 AM   #78
OldMarksman
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Interesting thread. I was taught that you only bring a gun into a situation if you are going to use it.
In that wording, I think, lies the confusion for some people. Try it this way: you only bring a gun into a situation if you would be justified in using it.

Quote:
Never to show it, never to scare someone...
Right, but there are some nuances among state laws. Know yours and those in the states in which you will be carrying.

Quote:
You don't have to fire the gun every single time you draw your handgun but every time I draw the sole intention is to immediately stop a threat. If the situation then changes, act accordingly.
Right. That's the whole point.

Quote:
You will only have a spit second to react so if you happen to shoot someone, the facts have to be clear that you reasonably believed your life or the life of another was in danger and that's why there is someone lying on the floor dead due to lead poisoning.
Generally true, but some states do have some other justifications for using deadly force. I'll conduct myself under your rule here.

One other thing: do not assume that the assailant will die, and expect his testimony to enter into investigations, a charging decision, and perhaps, trial.
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Old July 18, 2010, 11:59 AM   #79
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Do you think it would be different in Florida, or anywhere else, for that matter? How would you convince anyone that drawing your gun because someone was waving an edged weapon at you at a distance of fifty feet was necessary to protect yourself against imminent danger?

Do you think that someone would have the opportunity to harm you seriously with a knife from that distance? Do you think that you would be in jeopardy? Do you think that you would could lawfully draw your weapon if the answer to any of those questions is "no"?
I have no doubt in my mind that I would be justified in accessing my firearm in this scenario. I have even less doubt about articulating my fear of death or great bodily injury should it become necessary.

Brandishing and Aggravated Assault with a firearm goes out the window in this scenario despite the distance and (potentially temporary) lack of opportunity.

If you say you are going to kill me with this disassembled rifle then proceed to assemble, load, and aim this rifle, at what point is one justified in drawing ones firearm. Of course this is if retreat and or escape is not possible. According to the logic above opportunity isn't present until the rifle is loaded and charged.

Quote:
Interesting thread. I was taught that you only bring a gun into a situation if you are going to use it. Never to show it, never to scare someone but only to use it. Using it means fire the gun. You don't have to fire the gun every single time you draw your handgun but every time I draw the sole intention is to immediately stop a threat. If the situation then changes, act accordingly. You will only have a spit second to react so if you happen to shoot someone, the facts have to be clear that you reasonably believed your life or the life of another was in danger and that's why there is someone lying on the floor dead due to lead poisoning
So you were taught that pulling equals a must shoot. Then you say you don't have to fire it after pulling every time. This is a major contradiction. So one must conclude that either you were taught wrong or that pulling always equals shooting. Since we know this is not the case I think it is safe to say that you were taught wrong. Good to see that you were able to set aside this bad teaching.

Quote:
Try it this way: you only bring a gun into a situation if you would be justified in using it.
I disagree with this. How about this instead: You bring the gun into any situation that causes you to be fearful of death or great bodily injury or eminent threat thereof.
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Old July 18, 2010, 03:44 PM   #80
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If I can get away with drawing my firearm and not using lethal force to defend myself or another.. I would choose that route any day.
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Old July 18, 2010, 05:21 PM   #81
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So you were taught that pulling equals a must shoot. Then you say you don't have to fire it after pulling every time. This is a major contradiction. So one must conclude that either you were taught wrong or that pulling always equals shooting. Since we know this is not the case I think it is safe to say that you were taught wrong. Good to see that you were able to set aside this bad teaching.
There is no contradiction. When you draw, you draw to fire. Let's agree to disagree and you are welcome to do so.

Quote:
DanThaMan1776 If I can get away with drawing my firearm and not using lethal force to defend myself or another.. I would choose that route any day.
If I could avoid the whole situation altogether even better.
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Old July 18, 2010, 05:34 PM   #82
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Quote:
Interesting thread. I was taught that you only bring a gun into a situation if you are going to use it. Never to show it, never to scare someone but only to use it. Using it means fire the gun. You don't have to fire the gun every single time you draw your handgun but every time I draw the sole intention is to immediately stop a threat.
That's contradictory. The first sentence says you were taught not to draw unless you're going to use your gun.

The next says you don't have to fire it every time you draw.

Sometimes the threat IS stopped when you draw. Sometimes you have to shoot. OF COURSE the intention is to immediately stop a threat.

Lots of folks take the position that they aren't going to draw unless they're going to shoot. Guess they'll be shooting Bubba down while he's screaming "DON'T SHOOT!" with his hands in the air in front of witnesses, or while he's hot footing it in the other direction the instant he sees you go for a weapon.

Common sense should prefail over what someone heard or read somewhere. EVERYONE who carries a gun should know that the situation can change by the time you clear leather. Anyone who would teach someone they have to shoot everytime they draw is incompetent, and so is someone who teaches that just drawing the gun will always solve the problem.



Yes, I do feel better now. Sorry to vent, but sometimes enough is enough--probably the dang Red Bull again.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 18, 2010 at 05:41 PM.
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Old July 18, 2010, 05:36 PM   #83
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I agree with the OP also. I also love what Glen said, was kinda funny. Police draw their weapons all the time, many have done it over their entire career without ever fireing a shot. If your carrying a cw period you should be willing to use it if a situation dictates. If you have no intention of using the weapon and are just carrying it as a deturent then ya thats a mistake.
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Old July 18, 2010, 06:23 PM   #84
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I was taught and trained to not bring a firearm into the situation unless I was willing to use it if need be. That does not mean if I take it out then someone is getting filled with lead. Simply put I will not pull it out unless I am in a situation that calls for the use of deadly force. If the threat ceases without me having to shoot then it worked. I know not to just pull out a weapon if I am not going to use because if the threat calls that bluff thing will get deadly fast.
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Old July 18, 2010, 07:09 PM   #85
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Quote:
Tell me if a BG is at 50 feet, waving a knife and yelling he is going to cut your heart out. Are you justied in pulling your gun ? Hmmmm I'm thinking here in California, Marin County, you might end up in prison if you do.
Well, here in South Carolina, Charleston County, I doubt I would be prosecuted for simply showing Mr. Bad Guy that I am armed if he's only 50 feet away, armed with a knife and declaring his intent to kill me. I am disabled and unable to run and I can no longer fight effectively. I would feel compelled to draw.

Last edited by Rastus; July 18, 2010 at 07:14 PM.
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Old July 18, 2010, 10:02 PM   #86
Maromero
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That's contradictory. The first sentence says you were taught not to draw unless you're going to use your gun.

The next says you don't have to fire it every time you draw.

Sometimes the threat IS stopped when you draw. Sometimes you have to shoot. OF COURSE the intention is to immediately stop a threat.

Of course. That would be murder 1 but that's not the point. You don't draw to scare the would be attacker or intimidate a bully. When you draw your gun unnecessarily because there was no immediate threat, you escalate the situation. So, you only draw when there is a threat to you or a 3rd person. And you draw to shoot, not intimidate. Now, if the situation manages to change in the second or two you draw you have to make that decision to stop because the threat was stoped. if you shoot you commit a crime.

Quote:
Common sense should prefail over what someone heard or read somewhere. EVERYONE who carries a gun should know that the situation can change by the time you clear leather. Anyone who would teach someone they have to shoot everytime they draw is incompetent, and so is someone who teaches that just drawing the gun will always solve the problem.
Wow! Personal attacks. Tell you now I won't compete in the Special Olympics.
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Old July 18, 2010, 11:21 PM   #87
Glenn E. Meyer
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This is a stupid debate over nit-picking parsing.

1. You draw because you feel the need that you might have to shoot as the situation meets the need for and criteria to use deadly force.
2. You don't have to shoot.
3 You can challenge someone to see if that stops the threat that did meet the criteria for using deadly force. That depends on the lay of land.

So that's it. Stop playing word games and having a personality contest.
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Old July 19, 2010, 12:07 AM   #88
Nnobby45
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Quote:
This is a stupid debate over nit-picking parsing.

1. You draw because you feel the need that you might have to shoot as the situation meets the need for and criteria to use deadly force.
2. You don't have to shoot.
3 You can challenge someone to see if that stops the threat that did meet the criteria for using deadly force. That depends on the lay of land.

So that's it. Stop playing word games and having a personality contest.
I agree, and that's essentially what I'm saying. The specific situation determines the proper (and legal) course of action.

Sorry you think my attack was personal. It wasn't. It was aimed at a way of thinking that, as I mentioned, is too wide spread.

Lastly: I personally think you'd do fine in the Special Olylmpics--if you trained hard.
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Old July 19, 2010, 06:08 AM   #89
threegun
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When you draw your gun unnecessarily because there was no immediate threat, you escalate the situation.
This has not been my experience nor the experience of about 95 percent of defensive gun usages according to Glenn Meyer. As I said earlier and Glenn clarified sometimes you display your weapon before all three criteria ability, intent, and opportunity are met. This rarely escalates the threat and almost always DEescalates it.

Quote:
Never to show it, never to scare someone but only to use it. Using it means fire the gun.
Quote:
And you draw to shoot, not intimidate
You say that our sole intention for drawing should be to fire and this is simply wrong. When I drew on those kids on the basketball court my intention was to get them to stop advancing so I didn't have to shoot. I wanted to scare them. Guess what it worked.

If I don't "intimidate" them if I wait until all three criteria are met before pulling I just did a disservice to myself tactically, the kids I just shot, their families, my brother in law, etc.

Pulling equals being willing to use it thats it. Justification for pulling must be determined at that moment. Sitting here I can tell you without a sliver of doubt that had you been on that basketball court with 10-15 teen aged kids threatening to stomp you and closing the distance you would understand that there are times when pulling is both justified and multi intentioned.
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Old July 19, 2010, 07:54 AM   #90
OldMarksman
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Quote:
When you draw your gun unnecessarily because there was no immediate threat, you escalate the situation.
You also put yourself at great legal risk. In most states, you must be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Some states specify that force must be justified, and others, deadly force, though in the latter, your presentation of a weapon may not constitute deadly force per se.

Quote:
When I drew on those kids on the basketball court .... I wanted to scare them. Guess what it worked.
Here's what the state of Florida puts on its website on that subject:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html

A relevant excerpt:

Quote:
Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.
Arizona also provides legal guidance for the citizen:

http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concea..._ccw_legal.pdf

Here's a relevant excerpt:

Quote:
Effective Sep. 30, 2009, there is a new self-defense justification that permits the “defensive display” of a firearm “when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.” A.R.S. § 13-421. In other words, a person threatened with unlawful physical force or deadly physical force can respond with “defensive display of a firearm.” “Defensive Display” means (1) verbally informing an aggressor that you are armed; (2) exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand is meant to protect against the aggressor’s use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force; or (3) placing your hand on a firearm that is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
Before the law was changed last year, this same on-line resource by attorney Michael Anthony included the discussion of a hypothetical example in which it was explained that a person being intimidated and shoved by several people would have faced charges of aggravated assault had he drawn his gun or perhaps even put his hand on it. Most states have much more severe restrictions than Arizona has now.

Also, very few states provide resources such as these from Arizona and Florida. It is not a good idea to try to interpret the state code for oneself. So, unless you have reason to know otherwise, it is no doubt best to go by this from Glenn:

Quote:
1. You draw because you feel the need that you might have to shoot as the situation meets the need for and criteria to use deadly force.
2. You don't have to shoot.
3 You can challenge someone to see if that stops the threat that did meet the criteria for using deadly force. That depends on the lay of land.
Hopefully, your employment of your weapon will result in your not being killed or seriously harmed or in your shooting of an innocent person. It would be very, very good, of course, if it turns out that you do not have to shoot at all. Still better if you are not charged with a crime for either having drawn without lawful justification or having used deadly force without lawful justification.

Last edited by OldMarksman; July 19, 2010 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Rephrase last sentence
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Old July 19, 2010, 11:13 AM   #91
threegun
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Oldmarksman, I had 10-15 teens approaching me while making threats of violence. Their numbers certainly gave them the ability to cause me great bodily harm and death. Their verbal threats and posturing certainly gave them the intent to do the same. The only thing lacking because of the distance remaining for them to finish covering was opportunity. I made the decision that should I not be able to retreat safely I was going to use my firearm to stop the threat. When I displayed my firearm it was in the hope that the sight of it would stop the advance and thus end the encounter. I could have waited perhaps a few seconds longer to reach that danger zone in which I would be lucky to get my firearm into action had they chosen to turn a walk into a bum rush. Then I would have eliminated any advantage I had at the moment as well as doomed them to a much greater risk of being shot.

I was totally justified in pulling my firearm according to FLA law. I absolutely hoped that it would scare them into compliance. I was also preparing to use it should they continue.

I posted this to respond to this......

Quote:
Never to show it, never to scare someone but only to use it. Using it means fire the gun.................


.................And you draw to shoot, not intimidate
This is simply not true.
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Old July 19, 2010, 11:20 AM   #92
Maromero
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This is simply not true.
If when you draw your gun you are not justified to shoot in self defense you have no business drawing.
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Old July 19, 2010, 11:34 AM   #93
Glenn E. Meyer
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Like I said, we are word playing and the concept is clear. I explained it.

You don't have to shoot when you draw it. That's all.

Bye Bye

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