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Old June 13, 2010, 11:19 AM   #1
uspJ
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questions about draco. sbr or aow

i have heard conflicting information about draco pistols. i have heard that they are classified as handguns but not pistols and vice versa.

i have heard that i can add a vfg to the draco and that it would be legal due to the handgun but not a pistol loophole. i have also heard that doing so would require an any other weapon tax stamp. can anyone provide some clarification on this? if it is true an aow stamp is not required i would like to try this setup to see how i like it before moving on to an sbr build.

i bought the draco with the plans to turn it into a sbr. as i understand it with an sbr i can build it with or without a stock and once it is built i can change it around like i want. is this correct? if so, i thought this would be the safest/best way to go with the build as i will be legal with any configuration i end up with.

any information would be appreciated and thnks in advance.
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Old June 13, 2010, 11:43 AM   #2
ISC
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I have a hard time making sense of your post.

The only way something can be classified a handgun but not a pistol is if it is a revolver.

Once a weapon is classified as a SBR you can take the stock on and off at will.

I never heard of the accronym of a vfg.

I am confused by the way you phrased the rest of your question so I'm not sure what you are asking.

You might get more responses if you rewrite your question using capital letters and punctuation where appropriate. Folks would be able to understand it better.
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Old June 13, 2010, 12:38 PM   #3
uspJ
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I'll see if i can rephrase my question to accommodate you.

I have heard conflicting reports that the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,and Firearms) has classified the Draco as a handgun, but not a pistol. I have also been told that it has been classified as a pistol, but not a handgun.

I have been told that if I add a vfg (Vertical Forearm Grip) to the gun, and will be legal due to the handgun but not pistol loophole. I have also been told that this is incorrect, and would require an AOW (Any Other Weapon) stamp from the BATF. If I can legally add a vfg to the gun I would like to do so before going ahead with the SBR build to see if I like this setup. If an AOW is required I would be better off going with the SBR build since I could add or remove the stock as I see fit.


Quote:
Once a weapon is classified as a SBR you can take the stock on and off at will.
Thanks for confirming this.

Quote:
The only way something can be classified a handgun but not a pistol is if it is a revolver.
Really? Does the BATF know about this? So where do single shot handguns such as Thompson Contenders fit in? How about Derringers?

Quote:
You might get more responses if you rewrite your question using capital letters and punctuation where appropriate. Folks would be able to understand it better.
Thank you for the grammar check. It was informative, helpful, and relevant.

Quote:
I never heard of the accronym of a vfg.
I could recommend you check the spelling and definition of acronym, but that wouldn't be relevant to the topic posted.

Last edited by uspJ; June 13, 2010 at 12:48 PM.
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Old June 13, 2010, 08:30 PM   #4
knight0334
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You can add a VFG to a SBR and it will remain an SBR regardless of it having a shoulder stock or not. When you add a VFG to a handgun it becomes a AOW.


Being single shot, revolver, semi-auto, derringer, or whatever matters not - they are all handguns under the law(see definition below). When you add a shoulder stock to one with it having a barrel under 16" or an overall length less than 26" it becomes a SBR.

Revolvers are "pistols". Also known as a "revolving pistol"(see Samuel Colt's patent). A revolver is just a type of pistol. The definition of a pistol goes back to the 1400's to mean a gun design to be held and fired with a single hand, very similar to the federal definition below.


Quote:

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921

§ 921. Definitions
How Current is This?
(a) As used in this chapter—
(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
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Old June 14, 2010, 01:18 AM   #5
ISC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISC
The only way something can be classified a handgun but not a pistol is if it is a revolver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uspJ
Really? Does the BATF know about this? So where do single shot handguns such as Thompson Contenders fit in? How about Derringers?
Here is the definition of a pistol as per Code of Federal Regulations - Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
http://cfr.vlex.com/source/code-fede...-firearms-1076

Quote:
Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).


Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/479-11-meani...#ixzz0qnnBlu00
Note that, by definition, a revolver is NOT a pistol. Derringers and single shot Thompsons are.

Pistols and revolvers, while different, are both handguns. Revolvers, however, are not pistols and pistols are not revolvers. The only exception to this rule are pepperboxes.

One can look at a 100+ year old patent and draw any conclusion one wishes to, but the legal definition is quite clear and a 19th century mistake by a semiliterate blacksmith doesn't change that. Colt may have designed an interesting handgun (many folks contend that he stole the design) but no one claims that he was a legal scholar or that he was knowledgable about the correct useage of the English language.

The definition of any other weapon (AOW):
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 U.S.C. § 5845
Any other weapon
The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of
being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged
through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a
barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels
12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a
single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual
reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily
restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a
revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons
designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not
capable of firing fixed ammunition.
The issue of a forward pistol grip was codified in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(30)(B) which has been repealed. There may be equivilent state laws governing possession of pistols with forward pistol grips but the only federal restriction on them is an executive order interpreting such pistols as failing to meet a "sporting clause" and therefore banning them from importation.

BTW I did a search for VFG and these are the terms I came up with:

Vintage Fashion Guild
Victorian Frog Group
an aeronautical radio station at Gander, Newfoundland and Labrador
an indoor arena located in Guadalajara, Mexico
Vehicle Finance Group
vereinigung fotografischer gestalterInnen
Verein für Grossveranstaltungen
Variable Frequency Generator
Viral Friend generator

The web page "What does VFG stand for?" lists:
http://www.abbreviations.com/VFG

Virtual Flying Group Governmental
VFG Virtual Flying Group Community
VFG Virtual Facility Group Business
VFG Venture Financial Group, Inc. Business
VFG Vascularized Fibular Graft Medical
VFG Vendor Finance Group Business
VFG Vegetables, Fruit, And Garden Miscellaneous
VFG Video Frequency Generator

I finally saw ONE reference to it on the 4th search page and no more after that in the next few pages. It seems to be an obscure acronym.


I wasn't trying to bust on anyone for spelling errors, most of us make them and as long as it doesn't make the post hard to follow few people care. I couldn't follow the OP because of the way it was written, and was asking for clarification.

And here is the definition of acronym:
Quote:
a word formed from the initial letters or syllables taken from a group of words that form the name of a company, product, process, etc

Last edited by ISC; June 14, 2010 at 01:40 AM.
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Old June 14, 2010, 01:46 AM   #6
David Hineline
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If you build an AOW from a pistol the tax is $200, if you then build it into a Short Rifle the tax is an additional $200. So if SBR is your final goal, the AOW step is rather wastefull
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Old June 14, 2010, 02:26 AM   #7
knight0334
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Quote:
Note that, by definition, a revolver is NOT a pistol. Derringers and single shot Thompsons are.

Pistols and revolvers, while different, are both handguns. Revolvers, however, are not pistols and pistols are not revolvers. The only exception to this rule are pepperboxes.

One can look at a 100+ year old patent and draw any conclusion one wishes to, but the legal definition is quite clear and a 19th century mistake by a semiliterate blacksmith doesn't change that. Colt may have designed an interesting handgun (many folks contend that he stole the design) but no one claims that he was a legal scholar or that he was knowledgable about the correct useage of the English language.


You have to remember, you need to use the original meaning of words - otherwise we are no better than those that wish to have the word "people" mean the body of the citizens as a whole instead of individuals, or the "militia" to mean only the "National Guard". As for Colt using term, it was proper then as it is now.

The original meaning has nothing to do with integral chambers, of which is a modern and mutilated definition. That original definition is circa 1450 or so and is just gun designed to be held and fired with a single hand. Do some digging, you'll find the definition. A revolver is a revolving pistol.
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Old June 14, 2010, 04:08 AM   #8
Willie Lowman
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If you call it a pistol or a handgun does not matter. You cannot legally put a VFG on it without a tax stamp.

Form 1 SBR the darn thing and be done with it. Come back and post pics when you are done.
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Old June 14, 2010, 04:30 AM   #9
ISC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie lowman
You cannot legally put a VFG on it without a tax stamp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knight0334
When you add a VFG to a handgun it becomes a AOW.
I'd like to see a link to something documenting those statements. My understanding is that AOW has more to do with barrel length on smoothbores than anything else. The definition of an AOW is in my post above. If ATF has put another one out it would be helpful to all of us to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 U.S.C. § 5845
Such term shall not include a pistol or a
revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons
designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not
capable of firing fixed ammunition.
*
*
*********
*
*
Recognizing the difference between a revolver and a pistol is a useful distinctinction, just as recognizing the difference between an automatic weapon and a semiautomatic one.

The fact that many of the first semi autos were initially referred to as "automatic" doesn't mean that the distinction shouldn't be made.

Last edited by ISC; June 14, 2010 at 04:41 AM.
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Old June 14, 2010, 09:34 AM   #10
uspJ
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Quote:
If you build an AOW from a pistol the tax is $200, if you then build it into a Short Rifle the tax is an additional $200. So if SBR is your final goal, the AOW step is rather wastefull
Exactly.

If I could have put a vfg on without the AOW stamp i would have. I'm going the SBR route, that way I can go with any options for setup without paying the additional $200 for an AOW.

I just needed clarification about the vfg before I went ahead and got the paperwork started for the SBR. Thanks all.
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Old June 14, 2010, 09:44 AM   #11
ISC
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Again, why does putting a forward pistol grip on a pistol make it an AOW? Does anyone have a link to the law regulating that?
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Old June 14, 2010, 09:59 AM   #12
rjrivero
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Good Discussion HERE. A snip that woud interest you in putting a vertical foregrip on a Draco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bardwell
Any other weapons (AOW's) are a
number of things; smooth bore pistols, any pistol with
more than one grip
, gadget type guns (cane gun, pen gun) and
shoulder fired weapons with both rifled and smooth bore barrels
between 12" and 18", that must be manually reloaded (see discussion
below). These definitions are simplified, to see if a specific gun
is a title 1 or 2 firearm one needs to refer to the specific
definition under the statute(s), and possibly consult with the Technology
Branch of ATF.
So, the ATF has agrued that putting a vertical grip on a pistol is re-designing it to be fired with two hands, and therefore changes the design of the gun from a pistol to an AOW.

Interestingly, there is a court ruling in South Carolina (US v. Davis 8:93-106)that says adding a vertical foregrip to a pistol does not inherently change the design of the pistol, nor it's function, therfore does not constitute making an NFA firearm by merely putting a vertical foregrip on the weapon.

You can read it yourself, HERE. Read paragraph 24 through the end. It explains the position of the ATF interpreting the Definition of a Pistol as having a short stock that is capable of being fired with one hand. They argue that you can only have ONE STOCK on the gun for it to be a pistol. It furthermore argues that by adding a vertical foregrip on the gun, it is now designed to be fired with TWO hands, therefore once a foregrip is added to a pistol, it becomes an AOW.

The court dismissed these charges, the appeals court upheld this dismissal, thereby making the ATF ruling on Vertical Foregrips on pistols a non issue.

If you wanted to test this case law, then you are more than welcome to add a Vertical Foregrip to your Draco. However, I'll tell you MOST folks who dabble in NFA gear would recommend you go ahead and register it as an AOW, or SBR. Even though it would appear you are in the legal right, it may cost a bunch of money to prove it. Better to spend the $200 up front and have a Form 1 than it is to pay lawyers. (IMVHO)

I am NOT a lawyer. Please seek your own legal advice when playing in this particular sandbox.

Last edited by rjrivero; June 14, 2010 at 09:47 PM.
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Old June 26, 2010, 09:03 AM   #13
SimpleIsGood229
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An AOW tax stamp is actually $5.00, while the SBR stamp is $200.00. So, legally mounting a VFG to your Draco really isn't that expensive after all.
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Old June 26, 2010, 09:38 AM   #14
rjrivero
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The AOW TRANSFER Stamp is $5.00. The Form 1 is $200 no matter if you're making an AOW or SBR. The tax stamp to transfer an SBR is $200.
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Old June 26, 2010, 11:22 AM   #15
SimpleIsGood229
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Ahhh, thank you, RJ. I stand corrected.
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Old June 26, 2010, 03:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Interestingly, there is a court ruling in South Carolina (US v. Davis 8:93-106)that says adding a vertical foregrip to a pistol does not inherently change the design of the pistol, nor it's function, therfore does not constitute making an NFA firearm by merely putting a vertical foregrip on the weapon.
I hate to say it, but I disagree with the ruling on this one. If you add a vertical foregrip, you have redesigned the firearm to be used with two hands.
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Old June 26, 2010, 07:37 PM   #17
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I may be way off base, but ALLOWING it to be used with two hands by adding a VFG doesn't seem to change the design that it is MEANT to be fired with one hand. It still can be fired using one hand, or with two, if you so choose. Basic design is unchanged, but a new feature is added.
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