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Old November 24, 2000, 10:04 AM   #1
Glamdring
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I am planning on buying a long range hunting rifle for critters smaller than elk. And would like to know what real world ballistics are possible with 7STW and 300 Win, and with what barrel length [oh and with which bullet also].

I am also interested in the 270 Weatherby and the 300 Weatherby. And the comparable Dakota rounds.
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Old November 24, 2000, 10:22 PM   #2
JerryM
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Long range Rifles

I don't know what you should do. However, having hunted in the USA and Alaska (I was stationed there 3.5 years) I have concluded that for game smaller than elk I don't want any magnum. I have come to prefer the .270 WCF with 130 gr bullets loaded to 3150 fps. I have .243, 6mm, 7MM Rem Mag, 300 Wby Mag, and 338/06. In Alaska I used a .375 for Kodiak bears and moose. I have found that the .270 does everything I want for game the size of deer, antelope, sheep and the like. I have found the recoil of the magnums objectionable. Before you say that recoil doesn't bother you, try some magnums and fire them quickly as if you were being charged or had jumped game. Fire several fast shots at a target and then do the same with a standard cartridge. You will probably find that you push the heavy cartridges and tend to shoot low. You develop this flinch long before you go hunting. It comes from shooting at the bench sighting in and working up loads. You don't feel the recoil when shooting at game, but you have already developed the nervous reaction or flinch. When I have time to shoot slowly, squeezing the trigger I can do well with any thing, but it is different when I have to shoot fast. Mnay times shooting skeet I have heard men say: "Recoil doesn't bother me." Then they get a dud round and nearly jump off the station. In my diplomatic way I say: "For someone who isn't bothered by recoil you really have a bad flinch." Anyway of the cartridges you mentioned I would go with the .270 Wby. Just my idea after about 45 years of big game hunting. Jerry
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Old November 26, 2000, 05:17 AM   #3
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Well this rifle will be for a specific nich. For general hunting, of what I call "small" big game, I would prefer a 257 AI or 6.5x55.

What is recoil?

Seriously I do little shooting from the bench. I do most of my shooting from field postions. And I figure the felt recoil from a 8 to 9 lbs 7STW/300WM [total wt] won't be much more than light mag loads from my steyr scout.

I also dry fire a lot, which is a good way to spot flinching. In my personal experiance with long arms as long as I am wearing hearing protection and the stock design prevents my check/head from getting punished recoil is not a big factor. But then I don't try to fire long strings of fire with hard kicking gun/loads.

I do think that heavy loads are useful to teach one about proper technique. Fit is important also.

[Edited by Glamdring on 11-27-2000 at 11:58 AM]
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Old November 26, 2000, 02:15 PM   #4
HankL
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Remington Sendero in 7MM STW using Nosler Partitions gives a velocity of 3358 fps with good accuracy. These measurements were taken using my Oehler 33. The Remington has a 26" Bbl.
The center of the screens was 13' in front of the muzzle.
Elevation +-310, Temp mid 90's.

Never did work up a great load for my Sako in 300 Win. but 3000 fps using 180 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips is very doable. The Sako has a 25" Bbl.

HTH
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Old November 27, 2000, 11:48 AM   #5
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Hankl: What weight partitions in the 7STW? 160's?

And did you shoot it at 200 yards or more on paper? I would like MOA with partitions but would settle for 1.25 MOA.

That would allow me to reach out to 600 yards if I was able to shoot up to the rifle. Not that I plan to snipe game at that range, but I figure practice at 500 to 600 yards makes a 300 to 400 yard shot practical under good conditions.

I believe in practiceing/training for more demanding conditions than I expect to actually see in the field.
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Old November 27, 2000, 07:19 PM   #6
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Only 140s my friend. That is all I need on game here in MS.
I will be happy to try some 160 gr loads and email you the info that I come up with but looking at a Nosler #4 reloading guide I would say that the accurate loads at the 3300 fps velocity's might be hard to come by. The load I have is less than MOA at 300 yds. 2.75 groups are not uncommon. With a good rig and load combination and the practice you are mentioning I think you might get more bang for your buck with the 300 Win. but a 308 would do.
Best
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Old November 28, 2000, 12:22 PM   #7
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I think logic points towards the 300 but I would like to hear your reasoning.

If you decide to try some 150 or 160 grain bullets in the 7STW I would greatly appreciate hearing the results.

I don't think I would feel comfortable using a 308 past ~ 300 yards on game. Not saying it wouldn't do the job, just that I wouldn't trust it.

I have been looking at 270 Weatherby class [I think a 270 Dakota would be about perfect but I don't think that exists, even as a wildcat] with 140 or 150 grain bullets. The 7STW class with 150 or 160 grain bullets. And the 300's with 180 to 200 grain bullets.
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Old November 28, 2000, 08:39 PM   #8
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MY LOGIC AND REASONING ??? It will be this summer before I can play with working up loads again but I will be more than happy. In the mean time, I would venture this.
Accurate load in 7 STW with 160 gr. projectile = 3100 fps
would give you would give you a drop of around 18" with a 200 yd zero. The 30 cal with the 180 gr. at 3000 fps will give you about the same drop, deliver more energy and buck the wind a little better using similarly constructed projectiles.The 308 using 165 gr hunting projectiles will drop around 21" at 400 yds when using the same 200 yd zero.
I might be able to work up a faster accurate load for my particular rifle which will improve things but until the laws of physics change a 15" drop within these parameters will be wonderful! I'd say, get whatever suits your fancy and shoot it until you know it as well as you do your best friend! On a large open field I would not shoot at a game animal at over 300 yds because I could not evaluate it well and it would be hard to determine where it exited the field if it were to run a bit. Wide open spaces might be different but I hunt mostly here in MS. My best shot on a non game animal was a 2 shot stop on a coyote at a bit over 800 yds. A bunch of luck was involved but the bottom line was I knew the rifle like the back of my hand!
Caliber was 308!
Good luck in your quest.
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Old November 29, 2000, 08:59 AM   #9
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Glamdring,

I have been reloading the 7mm STW for a few years now. I startetd out when no commercial brass was available and I made mine from 300 H&H brass and later on, 8mm Rem. Mag. brass. I had to be the first kid on the block with an STW to be sure.

My rifle started out as a re-chambered Rem. 700 Sendero but I later had it re-barrled by Shilen w/a 26" stainless hand lapped match grade barrel w/ a muzzle brake. The "actual barrel" is 26" w/o brake. The rifle was then sent to Garland Gilbreath at Triple G Gunsmithing in TX on the recommendation of Shilen (he formerly worked for Shilen) to be glass bedded into an H-S Precison stock. Garland does fine work and has bedded 3 rifles for me since.

I have never been able to achieve velocities any where near what are published, especially by the Father of the STW, Layne Simpson. I think he tends to imbelish his results for the sake of his cartridge.

The best velocities I've gotten with factory ammo was with the Remington 140 gr. Core-Lokt pointed soft-point. I was not able to get any of the Federal ammo at the time but I understand it is available now as is the Speer Nitrex stuff.

I have loaded every bullet available in the STW in 140-175 gr. and find the 140gr. range to be about the best even though I would like to find a good 160gr. load. You will find that the 160gr. bullets are disappointing in the velocity department unless you stumble onto a powder that I have not used and that may be the realatively new Reloader 25 which I have not tried yet and most likely won't.

I have a real fondness for the Hornady 139gr. Spire Point in the 7mm Rem. Mag. but the STW is too fast for that bullet and you will experience premature break up of the bullet on cardboard with it! Make great holes.

The beat load that I can come up with is a couple of ones using the Nosler 140gr. PAR bullet. The 140gr. BT shoots well also as does the Winchester Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip 140gr. version. I can not consistantly get 1" groups at 100 with my rifle with my best loads. Some days it will, some days it just refuses.

I tigtened up my loads a little using Federal GM215M primers over the standard 215's but not enough to shout about.

I have rather extensive data so if you would like some of my loads, e-mail me and I will be glad to send you the info.

Now, with that being said, if I were contemplating a fast 7mm round today, I would definately take a look at the new Remington 7mm Ultra Mag in the African Plains Rifle.

Somehow I just think that rifle/cartridge combo may shoot very well.
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Old November 29, 2000, 11:50 AM   #10
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JMC: What techniques have you tried for your loads? If I understand you right your saying the best loads for your 7STW are over MOA? Have you tried changing OAL of cartridge a bit? Are you sure it isn't the gun or scope? I am just curious. I assume the barrel is free floated? If so, sometimes adding a pressure point will help. BTW have you tried RL 22? What will the gun do consistently? 1.25 MOA?

HankL: Are you talking a 24" or 26" brrl?

*** *** ***
I am still collecting info so I don't need load data yet...haven't picked a caliber yet. Just trying to get a feel for what the real world performance and capability for these various cartridges are.

I look at what the ammo companies claim their velocity is for a given load. And I look at the various loading manuals, grrr, some loading manuals have weatherby cartridges at same level as shorter magnum. Or the Barnes manual I have list 270 Weatherby specs that are no different than a 270 Rem.
*** *** ***
As to the Ultra cartridges I think they are a good idea, but they are to new for my taste. I don't want to have to work hard to find quality components. One of the reasons I think the 300 Win is the logical choice. You can get premium & Match grade loaded ammo, bullets, or brass no problem in that caliber. But you can't in 7STW. You could form 270 Weatherby from match 300 Win cases I suppose but I don't know if that is really a winning proposition?
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Old November 29, 2000, 12:40 PM   #11
JMC
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>>JMC: What techniques have you tried for your loads? If I understand you right your saying the best loads for your 7STW are over MOA? Have you tried changing OAL of cartridge a bit? Are you sure it isn't the gun or scope? I am just curious. I assume the barrel is free floated? If so, sometimes adding a pressure point will help. BTW have you tried RL 22? What will the gun do consistently? 1.25 MOA?<<

I use a Stoney Point Chamber-All to test and set the COL for the STW and have tried numerous lengths.

It is not the scope, rings or bases that is the issue here.

The barrel is free floated in the H-S Precision stock. It is made that way. I had it bedded along with the aluminum bedding block to elieviate any chance of movement in the stock and the gun is not taken out of the stock.

I have tried RL22 but favor IMR7828 or H4831 for best accuracy and velcoity. As I said, I understand that the new RL 25 is very good in the STW but I have not tried it.

I find that I get the best accuracy when I use once fired Rem. 8mm Rem. Mag. brass FL re-sized after fire forming to my chamber and I take care in the loading. I ream the inside of the necks and uniform the primer pockets. These loads are where I use the Fed. GM215M primers and of course, weight each powder charge exactly.

As far as accuracy here are a couple of examples:

Different reloaded 140's range from .670 - 1.44 for several 3 shot groups at 100 yds.

Remington factory 140's range from .992 - 1.667 at 100 yds.

The STW is very critical as to bore fouling and needs to be cleaned very well on a regular basis with a copper type remover to retain it's accuracy but this is true of any high velocity cartridge. If you really want to foul your bore in an STW use Barnes X bullets. It will take for ever to get the copper out.

My rifle will give me very good hunting accuracy out to 400 yds. The STW is not meant to be a target rifle capable of constant sub MOA accuracy but one would like it to be as cloase to that as possible. It will keep 3 shots inside of a 6" paper plate at 375 yds. from the prone position as would be use in a hunting situation. That's more than adequate for most use.

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Old November 29, 2000, 01:43 PM   #12
JerryM
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HankL,
At what range was your .308 sighted in for? How much was the drop at 800 yards? Did you estimate the range or did you have a laser rangefinder? Jerry
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Old November 29, 2000, 06:08 PM   #13
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Glamdring, The Bbl on the 308 is 22", 26" on the 7STW. I am using IMR 7828 powder in the STW but I think that I will look into the RL 25 when I can.

JerryM, The rifle is sighted in at 300 Meters. The bullet drop at 800 yds would be in the neighborhood of 280" Iwas using M118 Ball ammo which uses a 172gr. projectile at 2640 fps. The trick was that the coyote was running on our firing range near a large cottonwood log that I knew was about 800 yds from me! I dialed in 800 yds on the ART II scope and the M21 pretty well did the rest of the job.
Did you really have to make me tell all of the details and make my great shot into a no brainer? And yes, the rifle was bagged up to the max and there was zero wind and minimal mirage thank you

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Old November 30, 2000, 12:57 AM   #14
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Well, my vote goes for the .300 Win. Mag. My rifle is a Winchester Model 70 with a black synthetic stock and a skinny 26 inch barrel. With loads it likes, it will do from .75 inch to 1.25 inch at 100 yards. I sight it in 3 inches high at 100 yards, and the deer worry out past 400 yards, if I do my part. Frankly, I don't like to shoot much past 200 yards and prefer to get closer.
My pet load is worked up with Winchester's WMR powder, sadly discontinued. Velocity is 3070 FPS according to my F-1 Chrony.
I pick on the .300 Win. primarily because ammo is probably a lot easier to find than ammo for the 7MM STW, fine cartridge that it may be.
HankL. Even with a scope that you can dial in the range, a hit on a "yodel pup" at 800 yards is still one hell of a shot. My longest shot was a mule deer at 427 paces. Gun was a remington 660, 20 inch barrel, 150 gr. Sierra bullet, vel unk. Still and all, it got the deer with the first shot. Normally, I won't shoot that far, but my hunting buddy had wounded it and it was getting away. I'll be the first to admit it was a lucky shot. Deer was a 195 pound 4x3.
Just my .02.
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Old November 30, 2000, 01:05 AM   #15
Glamdring
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JMC: Hmm...The mysteries of rifles. I am still learning about the accuracy game. So please forgive me if my questions seem simplistic. BTW I didn't think RL 22 was an accurate powder just one that allows for fairly high velocity loads.

Do you think the limiting factor for your 7STW is the cartridge [ie cartridge design]? Or some other factor(s) involved?

One of my friends is a gunsmith and I know one rifle he built for himself would never group for him no matter what he did. I think it was chambered for 280. He finally ended up removing the barrel and making the rifle a 25-06 which shoot fine. The same smith also had a customer that had bought a Dakota that wouldn't group no matter what they did [not group like a Dakota should] and they sent it back tot he factory and the factory ended up putting a different barrel on it to make it shoot.

My Steyr Scout will shoot around .80" to 1.00" depending on the person behind the gun shooting federal premium ammmo [ballistic tips or gamekings] at 100 yards. But I have a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 that will shoot 1.25" at 100 yards with FMJ surplus ammo or Federal classic load.

Anyway like I said I am still learning. But my current understanding is to shoot accurately consider the following in order: 1) Shooter [technique, position, etc.] 2) Rifle, scope, screws, bedding & etc all in proper adjustment 3) Quality & precision of Bullets [ballistic tips, match grade, etc if your just shooting paper or varmints] 4) OAL of cartridge

After that then look at things like powder, primer.
Ah condition of the crown and such I would put in number 2.
Am I on the right track as far as priorities go for accuracy?
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Old November 30, 2000, 07:01 AM   #16
JMC
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Ok, you guys made me do it. I went down into the loading room records and started to dig out the STW load stuff.

Another powder that I have tried w/the 160gr. bullets is H1000 and it works pretty well but again, the velocity was a little low for my liking.

It did give me some of the best 300 yd. groups w/the Sierra 160gr. BTSP bullet that I was able to obtain.

I believe the STW can be and is an accurate cartridge in a good rifle but ALL the factors have to come together just right.

I'm still thinking about a remington 7mm Ultra Mag in an APR.
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