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Old May 26, 2010, 10:12 AM   #151
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
They gave you an example peet

The harry Beckwith incident.

How about the shop keepers on the roofs protecting thier stores in the LA riots with hi cap rifles? Not good enough?
Nope. Not only are they "not good enough", they're not even on topic.

We're talking about civilian, on-the-street, concealed carry.

Not businesses.

Not homes.

Not cops.

Not FBI.

I've already explained why. You can have a 50 gallon drum full of loaded 30 round mags in your watch store and suffer ZERO negatives.

Your house can be defended by 12 different guns with 112 spare mags and you make ZERO sacrifices.

You can defend your gun store with full-auto weaponry and you DON'T have to CARRY IT AROUND.
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Old May 26, 2010, 10:38 AM   #152
wayneinFL
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Quote:
Nope. Not only are they "not good enough", they're not even on topic.

We're talking about civilian, on-the-street, concealed carry.

Not businesses.

Not homes.
Huh? That's not what the OP was about. He said "non-law enforcement". Harry Beckwith and Lance Thomas were not cops.


Quote:
Hi everybody, this is my first post.

Does anyone have any real life examples of "high" capacity (a capacity greater than 10), or a reload actually being needed in a civilian and non-law enforcement self-defense encounter?

I live in an Southern-California where there is some gang violence and and I'm looking at how practical a 1911 that holds 8 rounds is over a polymer gun that can hold somewhere between 13 and 19 rounds.

So, real life examples would be ideal. I've searched for news articles, and The Armed Citizen and couldn't find anything.

Thank you for you help.
-Jai

In my opinion, ya'll need to give up on the ******* contest. If you want full capacity magazines, it is possible you would need them, so go for it. If you feel the odds are so remote that you would ever use them, and choose not to carry them, don't. It's pretty simple.
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Old May 26, 2010, 10:43 AM   #153
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Nope. Not only are they "not good enough", they're not even on topic.

Quote:
We're talking about civilian, on-the-street, concealed carry.

Not businesses.

Not homes.

Not cops.

Not FBI.

I've already explained why. You can have a 50 gallon drum full of loaded 30 round mags in your watch store and suffer ZERO negatives.

Your house can be defended by 12 different guns with 112 spare mags and you make ZERO sacrifices.
from the standpoint of rounds needed, I don't see why a home defense incident should require any more shots than an incident on the street. True, one can have a lot more ammunition at hand in the bedroom.

Let's see---you and I carry guns with similar capacity; one of mine holds less. Yours is more powerful.

Nether of us anticipates ever having to use one for defense.

You argue that having one is not "necessary", and I believe that having one is prudent.

I am permitted to have a higher capacity weapon, and I choose not to. You are not permitted to have one, and I infr that you would not carry one anyway....
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Old May 26, 2010, 10:46 AM   #154
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneinFL
Huh? That's not what the OP was about. He said "non-law enforcement". Harry Beckwith and Lance Thomas were not cops.
"Self-Defense" generally implies "on-the-street". That's why we have the term "Home Defense".

Is home defense defense of self? Yes.

"Gang violence" implies "on-the-street". There's not a lot of gang violence in my home.

Could gang violence be "in-the-home"? Yes, it's possible.

The implication of questioning hi-cap or spare mag carry is that the reference point is OUTSIDE of home or business because, as I've said several times, there are no downsides to arming yourself with belt-fed Minigun at home. There ARE downsides to more and heavier guns out, on-the-street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybeinFL
In my opinion, ya'll need to give up on the ******* contest. If you want full capacity magazines, it is possible you would need them, so go for it. If you feel the odds are so remote that you would ever use them, and choose not to carry them, don't. It's pretty simple.
It is pretty simple. We've covered all that.

What we're having here is a conversation. A spirited debate is not automatically a "***** contest".

We're having a conversation. Thank you for your opinion. You are welcome to participate, or not, your choice, but don't tell us to shut up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksMan
from the standpoint of rounds needed, I don't see why a home defense incident should require any more shots than an incident on the street. True, one can have a lot more ammunition at hand in the bedroom.
I don't see why either, necessarily, but from the "anecdotes" that I've seen, there is a difference. Forceful home invasions, for example, often involve multiple, moving targets who can very well shoot back and give you little or no warning. It appears that street encounters are rarely, if ever, at that level.
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Old May 26, 2010, 10:49 AM   #155
2damnold4this
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Not that it will change your mind since you've been given several examples that you dismiss for various reasons but here is another:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n27134440/

Rory Vertigan was a 27-year-old security professional working in Phoenix on March 26, 1999. He was leaving his office with a .25 caliber mouse-gun in his pocket when something told him to re-arm with something bigger. He did, putting on his G31, a full size Glock service pistol chambered for the .357 SIG cartridge. It was a decision he would never regret.

In a matter of minutes, Vertigan found himself witness to an appalling scene. A big white Lincoln ran through a stop sign ahead of him, pursued by a Phoenix police car driven with a lone, uniformed patrolman at the wheel. The fugitive vehicle stopped, and Vertigan watched in horror as the driver stepped out, drew a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum, and fired several shots into the patrol car.

Vertigan didn't know it, but the gunman's bullets had fatally wounded Phoenix PD officer Marc Atkinson, a 28-year-old husband and father. As Vertigan came to a stop in his subcompact car, the gunman swung the Magnum in his direction. Snatching up his .357 Glock and transferring it to his left hand, Vertigan thrust it out the driver's side window and opened fire, point-shooting weak-hand only.

The gunman jumped back into the Lincoln to reload, then jumped back out to engage, and Vertigan, now out of his car and in a two-handed position behind his open door, opened up on him again. The suspect leaped into his car once more, threw it in reverse, and rammed it into Vertigan's tiny Kia.

Now lacerated by flying glass, Vertigan continued firing until his pistol went to slide-lock. He had no more ammunition, so he charged the ensconced gunman. The perp shoved his revolver into Vertigan's face and pulled the trigger, but it only clicked. Vertigan--six feet five, 300 pounds--grabbed the gunman and bodily ripped him out of the vehicle, disarming him and throwing him to the ground. At this point, other citizens came to his aid. Officer Atkinson was dead. Rory Vertigan had shot, wounded, disarmed and captured the cop-killer.

Vertigan Lessons

Chris Bird delineates several good learning points from this incident. Have enough gun. Had he been armed only with the single stack small-caliber pistol he started with, Vertigan might not have survived. Have enough ammo. If he'd been able to reload, Vertigan (who had only 14 rounds in his 16-shot G31, and ran dry) might have been able to finish the fight without closing hand-to-hand with his opponent and risking death. Bird learned the suspect had reloaded his .357 with three live rounds before he shoved the gun into Vertigan's face and pulled the trigger, the hammer falling on an empty chamber. Bird reports the heroic citizen "doesn't go anywhere now without extra magazines or a backup gun in an ankle holster."
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Old May 26, 2010, 10:56 AM   #156
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damold4this
Not that it will change your mind since you've been given several examples that you dismiss for various reasons but here is another:

Not several, but you have finally provided one single example.

I can not deny that it has, in fact, happened in modern American history.

It is almost exactly as I described in my previous post.

This happened approximately 10 years ago, 2,000,000 DGUs per year since then (more than half of which are inside the home) but still... so IF you're involved in a DGU I will acknowledge that there is approximately a 1/200,000 chance of "needing" a reload.
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Old May 26, 2010, 11:05 AM   #157
2damnold4this
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Quote:
This happened approximately 10 years ago, 2,000,000 DGUs per year since then (more than half of which are inside the home) but still... so IF you're involved in a DGU I will acknowledge that there is approximately a 1/200,000 chance of "needing" a reload.
How can you conclude that none of the other DGUs needed reloads? Are you familiar with each one?

Quote:
Not several, but you have finally provided one single example.
Here is another that might be up to your standards:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Armed+...t.-a0112794991

During a second restroom stop, Dr. Peebles was finally able to slump down and retrieve a .22-caliber revolver kept for self-protection in the compartment of a van door. He hid it in the lining of his jacket. Later, during yet another bathroom break near Lufkin, Texas, Dr. Peebles decided to make his move. As he emerged from the van, he drew the revolver and started firing until the gun was empty.

Three shots found their mark, striking Eizember in the chest, but they did not disable him. Eizember began pistol-whipping Dr. Peebles, who later recalled that "after about the third blow, I just went down and stayed on the ground and acted like I was out." He expected to be shot, but was not. Only later did he learn that the firing pin in Eizember's gun was defective.
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Old May 26, 2010, 11:12 AM   #158
Brian Pfleuger
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How can you conclude that none of the other DGUs needed reloads? Are you familiar with each one?
I don't have to be familiar with every one.

I asked for examples. You believe it, you prove it.



A 22 revolver? Ok. Fine. We could get into the debate about carrying a 22 for defense... but I'll leave that alone for now....
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---
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Old May 26, 2010, 11:35 AM   #159
OldMarksman
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You believe it, you prove it.
Not to reply for the sole purpose of being argumentative, but just to dish up some food for thought: in most safety related evaluations, such as FDA approval testing, URL endorsements, and so on, the burden of proof is so allocated that interested parties must demonstrate convincingly that danger does not exist...for what it may worth here.

That doesn't seem to always be true. When a new power line was being pu up a decade ago, the power company spokesman repeatedly said that there is no evidence showing that high voltage lines present a health hazard, and the debate rages on about cell phone safety.

I'm not sure what drives the difference; it's probably laws and regulations.

Does anyone know whether there was any proof that lead .22 bullets actually harmed the condor?
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Old May 26, 2010, 11:38 AM   #160
wayneinFL
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I'm not telling anyone to shut up, I just don't see any new ideas. It's basically, "I don't carry high caps, because it's rare that I would need them" vs. "I do carry high caps, because I might need them anyway."

I'm sitting here with a 5 shot .38 in my pocket, wondering what all the fuss is about. If someone else wants to lug around a gun with 17 rounds, why is it my concern?

As long as some lawmaker isn't sitting there thinking "no one needs to carry high caps, so we'll ban them", we're gonna do just fine.
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Old May 26, 2010, 11:57 AM   #161
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All righty then. We're up to 160 posts here and going 'round and 'round.

Trouble is the " 'round" is becoming more like a round in the ring, if you get my drift , and I don't think there's anything new we can get out of this.

Time to call it a day, methinks.

Closed.
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