Never seen anything like this

[jambrdly]

Hello: I have been reloading for larger calibers, .30 through .404, for years and have never had any problems until I bought a mini-14 and tried to reload for .223. I mike every case, use a shoulder gauge, weigh every charge, every bullet, use RCBS dies and still my end product is all over the place. The OAL length on my loaded cartridges comes out with a variance from 2.2215 all the way up to 2.2240 - from the same die - and yes I checked that everything is snug and tight. Worse yet, the bullets come out 1/2 the time loose in the case mouth - even though I am hand checking each one for tightness before running it into the die. I am using R-P cases, and winchester 55 gr bullets. I have tried Remington bullets and Noslers - same problem. I had heard that these smaller calibers can be fiddly but I had no idea of waht I was getting into. Any suggestions (apart from junking the whole thing and moving up to a .308)?

[snuffy]

Hello: I have been reloading for larger calibers, .30 through .404, for years and have never had any problems until I bought a mini-14 and tried to reload for .223. I mike every case, use a shoulder gauge, weigh every charge, every bullet, use RCBS dies and still my end product is all over the place. The OAL length on my loaded cartridges comes out with a variance from 2.2215 all the way up to 2.2240 - from the same die - and yes I checked that everything is snug and tight.

Where are you measuring your OAL? If from the tip of the bullet to the base of the brass, then that variance is normal. The seater die seats by pushing on the sides of the front of the bullet,(the ogive), so the tips can be shorter or longer.

Worse yet, the bullets come out 1/2 the time loose in the case mouth - even though I am hand checking each one for tightness before running it into the die.

Loose bullets is a sign that your brass is being sized too big inside the neck by the expander button. Or that it's work hardened so it doesn't spring back after being expanded.

I am using R-P cases, and winchester 55 gr bullets.

Which Winchester bullet? FMJ or soft point?

I have tried Remington bullets and Noslers - same problem. I had heard that these smaller calibers can be fiddly but I had no idea of what I was getting into. Any suggestions (apart from junking the whole thing and moving up to a .308)?

Loading .223 is no more difficult than any other rifle caliber, just smaller. It will be interesting to see what we come up with as to reasons for your problem.

[briandg]

never mind...

[50of4064]

Had a Mini 14 in.223 so I feel your pain. Are you trimming all your cases to a consistent case length ? Are you putting a roll crimp on the finished cartridge?
If all the cases are a uniformed length then when seating the bullet the COAL should be consistent also. If you crimp, which is recommended, that should keep the bullet from moving in or out of the case. and it has a tendency to help in the accuracy dept, seeing how you have stabilized all the other variables.

[bedlamite]

[palabman]

[jambrdly]

I am using winchester 55 gr fmj bullets with cannelure. I use a roll crimp die - but the bullets are often too loose in the case mouth to crimp. I measure OAL from the tip of the bullet to the base of the brass - but it is the same, trimmed, sized brass and the same bullet, same die everytime. I can't figure it out.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I measure OAL from the tip of the bullet to the base of the brass - but it is the same, trimmed, sized brass and the same bullet, same die everytime. I can't figure it out.

The reason for the variance is that the tips of bullets is inconsistent. The most consistent way to measure OAL is with a tool that touches the bullet ogive rather than the tip. (As Snuffy suggested)

Even so, .003 variance is not particularly terrible for FMJ bullets that are not sorted in lots according to the machine that produced them.

The part about being "loose in the neck", I don't know. How are you sizing the cases?

[ScottRiqui]

You're talking about a variance of only 2.5 thousandths of an inch in OAL, so whatever your problems are, that's the least of them.

You say that the bullets are loose in the case mouth, sometimes even after crimping? That concerns me the most and definitely shouldn't be the case. I doubt you got an entire batch of bad Winchester .224 bullets, so it's got to be something with either the die or the setup. I don't have any RCBS gear, so I'm at a loss.

Take one of your problem cases and mike the outside of the neck, as well as the diameter of one of the bullets and post the results here. At least we can confirm that it's the neck and not the bullet.

[jmorris]

You're talking about a variance of only 25 thousandths of an inch in OAL

No, he is talking about 2.5 thousandths of an inch, not much for bulk fmj as noted above (10X's that would be too much IMO).

Do your cases fit the case gauge before seating the bullet? Are you FL sizing? By "checking each one for tightness" I assume everything is OK before you seat the bullet? If so, you know where to look. Are you crimping and with what die?

There are some that didn’t read your post and assumed accuracy is your problem, FWIW you don’t need to go to all of the trouble to make match ammunition for the mini, it will never be a tack driver. Figure out what is causing the loose bullets and you’ll be fine.

[jambrdly]

everything seems to be ok before I seat the bullet. The outside of the neck mikes 0.255, the inside mikes at 0.223. I checked two of every bullet I have tried - they all mike at 0.224.

[snuffy]

everything seems to be ok before I seat the bullet. The outside of the neck mikes 0.255, the inside mikes at 0.223. I checked two of every bullet I have tried - they all mike at 0.224.

It sounds to me like your expander ball is oversize. Take the FL sizer die apart, get the decapper rod and expander ball out of the die. Now mike that expander ball. If it's leaving you necks @ .223, that's your problem! It should be more like .221. This makes the bullet expand the smaller ID to create what's called "bullet pull". IOW the force required to pull a bullet out of the neck. Normal neck/bullet diameter should be around .003 difference, or smaller than bullet diameter.

It's an easy fix, you will have to polish the expander button down a little bit to make it smaller. Make sure you use a fine abrasive so it slides smoothly through the neck.

All the above assumes you're using some sort of lube on the insides of the neck? Failure to lube the inside of the neck could be why you're having trouble, although that's a stretch.

[jambrdly]

Still working on it - incredibly, I get better results with a LEE seating die, which is strange because I have always had the impression that RCBS is head and shoulders above LEE in quality.

By the by - thanks for all the quick responses. Very helpful.

[ScottRiqui]

No, he is talking about 2.5 thousandths of an inch, not much for bulk fmj as noted above (10X's that would be too much IMO).

eh, what's a factor of ten among friends?

Seriously, thanks for catching my mistake. I'll update my original post.

[jambrdly]

I adjusted the FL sizing die and the case mouth is now miking at .221
this seems to have fixed the loose bullet problem. Using the Lee seating die everything seems to be coming out pretty consistent now. I think it was some sort of anomaly with the RCBS seating die. Thanks for everyone's help!