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Old May 10, 2010, 07:05 AM   #1
CWPinSC
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Multiple Weapons

OK, we got some guys in here who get by on one 5 shot snubby. We got some guys who need a hi-cap primary with spare mags, a backup with extra ammo, a knife and OC. We got everything in between.

That's fine, carry what you think you need. However, can you protect it?

You have multiple weapons on your belt. Your SA went on vacation and you're hand to hand with the BG. He's grabbing for one or more of your weapons. How do you protect what he's grabbing for and manage to use what you can get to? How do you prevent having one of your weapons being turned against you?
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Old May 10, 2010, 07:18 AM   #2
Dwight55
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Bite, gouge, kick, stomp, lunge, run, . . . at that point, it is down to jungle survival, . . . spit in his face, put a thumb in his eye, yank his beard give him a good old fashioned head butt or , . . . ummm, . . . shall we say, attack his manhood , . . . if he has seen your weapon and is going for it, . . . you are in a do or die, . . . and if you don't do, . . . you are probably gonna die.

I'd probably yell "Help, . . . Help" at the top of my lungs a couple times too, . . . but it takes a lot of wind to yell, . . . and you can't waste a lot of wind when you are fighting.

Depending on where he was trying to concentrate, . . . I might let him have the ammo mags or some other thing to make him think he got something while I'm retreiving my 1911 and donating some lead to the cause.

Main thing, . . . forget fighting fair, . . . forget rules of engagement, . . . get the upper hand, . . . and get this over. The longer it goes, . . . the better chance he has to do you under.

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Old May 10, 2010, 08:03 AM   #3
"JJ"
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+1 to Dwight55

I would like to think I would pick up on a possible situation before it gets to this point. But we get better at identifying a possible situation and the BGs get better about disguising it! At this point, do what ever you can to disable the BG in anyway. Head butt, knee & elbow are often over looked for close combat. A head to the BG's nose can delay his attack for a second. That just might be enough time to get away or if necessary, eliminate the threat!
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Old May 10, 2010, 08:45 AM   #4
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I run like a tree, it has always been like that so running has never been an option.

The bad guy did not bring anything to the fight and I know my slide action does not work because in an attempt to fire it it failed and the bad guy needs something I have to do me harm? Seems a good excuse for my actions would be in order and if the bad guy is bad I have just provided him with the means to be real bad if he clears the SA to fire.

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Old May 10, 2010, 10:11 AM   #5
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I assume by S.A. you are referring to a single action handgun, and I also assume the bad guy is unarmed. If so, you have a decent club in your hand, use it now if you break his hand or arm this will slow him down enough for you to disengage and ready a more effective weapon. If the bad guy does not surrender at this point you got to take him out of the fight NOW! If that means you have to kill him so be it.

Remember you will live with your actions the rest of your life, so be sure you did the right thing.
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Old May 10, 2010, 10:29 AM   #6
R1145
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SA=Situational Awareness

Lots depends on what you've done to prepare. For open carry, you should pick a holster with gun retention features. CCW, surprise is your biggest gun retention advantage: Hopefully, the BG doesn't know you have a gun until you deploy it.

Options in a gun retention situation are:

- As soon as you realize something is happening, get your hand on top of the weapon (or the BG's hand) to lock it in the holster;

- Use free hand to grab BUG, which, of course, you've positioned for a weak hand draw;

- No BUG, use free hand, elbow, etc., to whack BG ferociously while twisting body frantically to break his grip on your weapon;

- Goal is to break free, roll away, etc., while retaining control of weapon.

Good luck!

Last edited by R1145; May 10, 2010 at 10:40 AM.
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Old May 10, 2010, 11:31 AM   #7
AcridSaint
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Practice retaining your weapons, find out what to expect so that you are not caught in a situation where you have to react with no previous experience.
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Old May 10, 2010, 03:14 PM   #8
CWPinSC
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Quote:
I assume by S.A. you are referring to a single action handgun
Ah...no. SA = situational awareness

I'm big and fairly strong, but not really "fit". I weigh 275, so running really isn't an option. If a fight goes longer than 30 seconds (and 30 seconds is a LONG time to constantly fight) I'm in deep kimchee. I like the replies to "get down and dirty", and I would. I'm looking to hit to instantly disable/kill. Eyes, throat, groin, etc.
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Old May 10, 2010, 11:31 PM   #9
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Typically it will be decided in less than 15 seconds. Don't waste any of them.
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Old May 11, 2010, 12:00 AM   #10
hexidismal
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How does the theoretical BG know I have firearms to grab for in the first place ? That's what concealment is for.
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Old May 11, 2010, 07:00 AM   #11
CWPinSC
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How does the theoretical BG know I have firearms to grab for in the first place ? That's what concealment is for.
In most states, a sheathed knife or OC spray doesn't have to be concealed. If he brushes against you, checking you out, he may feel your gun under your shirt. If he grabs you to beat on you or rob you, he may feel the gun, or your clothing may shirt and expose it. Read my original post again - your situational awareness went on vacation and you let him get too close.
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Old May 11, 2010, 07:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Read my original post again - your situational awareness went on vacation and you let him get too close.
Quote:
You have multiple weapons on your belt. Your SA went on vacation and you're hand to hand with the BG. He's grabbing for one or more of your weapons. How do you protect what he's grabbing for and manage to use what you can get to? How do you prevent having one of your weapons being turned against you?
Okay, let me get this right. You are carrying multiple weapons on your belt but are totally in condition white and somehow a bad guy has ascertained that you have weapons on your belt and has chosen to struggle with you over the weapons and you want to know how to defend against this sort of attack? In other words, you want to know how to defend against this sort of attack when you haven't done what is needed in the first place to defend against this sort of attack?
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Old May 11, 2010, 07:27 AM   #13
skifast
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I carry a knife in my back weak side pocket. It is either a modified CRKT M16 4 inch Tanto modified to open as I remove it from my pocket or a 3 inch Remington assisted opener.

If said BG is going for my gun holstered IWB strong side 3 o'clock, my plan is to pull the knife and hack away, until my gun is cleared.

I practice the CAR shooting technique. Once the gun is drawn, weapon retention is very strong.
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Old May 11, 2010, 08:41 AM   #14
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Old May 11, 2010, 08:58 AM   #15
indykappa
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2 things...

1. I am with Dwight55 on his 1st post. There is no such thing as a "fair fight". I will bite/kick/elbow/spit/knee you in order to get enough clearance to retain/draw my weapon.

2. I think carrying a knife on your weak-side is an excellent suggestion! If I were in a scenario where a BG was grabbing at my gun, I would do my best to cover my gun with my strong hand and stab the living begeezus out of the BG with my knife
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Old May 11, 2010, 09:15 AM   #16
booker_t
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Regarding blade use, how many of you really train with those knives? Are they fixed blade or folders?

Personally I carry a fixed blade tanto with a slight curve to the leading edge. While the tanto point is a great penetrator, I'm trying to slice not stab, draining the maximum amount of blood in the minimum amount of time. I have a rubber trainer with the exact same dimensions and weight.

If you have a folder, I highly suggest getting a trainer and working with a partner at least an hour a week to maintain your skills. Spyderco makes some very affordable training folders.

Another training note is the at minimum, accustom yourself to the resistance presented by flesh and bone. It's very different to thrust through a piece of meat than it is to slash the air or some cardboard. A pork shoulder or some short ribs make cheap and tasty training tools.

Last edited by booker_t; May 11, 2010 at 10:24 AM.
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Old May 11, 2010, 02:28 PM   #17
CWPinSC
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Quote:
In other words, you want to know how to defend against this sort of attack when you haven't done what is needed in the first place to defend against this sort of attack?
That's slightly argumentative. Anyone, even YOU, can be surprised or jumped. BTW, how much SD training (actual courses) have YOU had to prepare you for this? I think my OP is a fair question and so do others, since they're offering real suggestions.

"booker t" asks a good question, too. We train with our handguns a lot. How many who carry knives train with them? I'm gonna hijack my own thread for a moment. In a recent gun magazine, in an article on close-up SD, there was a picture of the instructor demonstrating a knife cross slice at front mid-thigh to the BG. He recommended it because the cutting the muscles would be disabling and the blood loss would be extensive (probably sending the BG into shock). I would never have thought of mid thigh as an attack point.

Last edited by CWPinSC; May 11, 2010 at 02:34 PM.
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Old May 11, 2010, 03:17 PM   #18
markj
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A policeman told me I cant carry my cold steel battle axe around.......

The morningstar was waaaay too heavy....

A spear is also out of the question...

Can you carry a shield?

A gun is OK, always have carried a small knife. What am I getting into out there? a war zone? Best stay home and work from there, everything can now be ordered from the internet and delivered right to your door, dont shoot the deliveryman....
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Old May 11, 2010, 03:49 PM   #19
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
In other words, you want to know how to defend against this sort of attack when you haven't done what is needed in the first place to defend against this sort of attack?
Quote:
That's slightly argumentative. Anyone, even YOU, can be surprised or jumped. BTW, how much SD training (actual courses) have YOU had to prepare you for this? I think my OP is a fair question and so do others, since they're offering real suggestions.
It isn't argumentative. In fact, it seems to be spot on. I am just trying to get a grasp on how you set up a convoluted scenario. So you are this guy who is really well prepared (or maybe paranoid) with all these weapons on your belt, but completely out in left field when you get attacked by a guy going hand-to-hand and who has somehow gained knowledge of what it is that you have on your belt and so is trying to gain one of said weapons (which one?) and you want to know how to defend against this specific attack?

I am still not being argumentative, but you have posed a scenario that is overly specific in some aspects without any relevant information in others. You have neglected to inform us as to exactly what weapons are being carried on the belt, in what way they are being carried, where they are being carried on the belt, if you have any other weapons available to you, if your cohorts around you could participate, what sort of training you have in hand-to-hand, what sort of training you have in weapon retention, and what sort of training you have in the use of each of the weapons you are carrying on your belt. Is your attacker larger or smaller than you? Stronger than you? From which direction is the attack coming?
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Old May 11, 2010, 06:32 PM   #20
CWPinSC
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Quote:
It isn't argumentative.
Funny, but...(edit) ya know what, it's not even worth replying to. To all who answered legitimately, thanks!

Bye.

Ignore.

Last edited by CWPinSC; May 11, 2010 at 06:41 PM.
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Old May 12, 2010, 02:23 AM   #21
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If I have some miscreant going for the weapon on my hip, and my learned weapon retention skills fail me, I still have another weapon of three to assist me in going home to my family.

Try to take my gun, and while I'm resisting and moving don't be suprised if you get shot, stabbed, broken/dislocated bones and joints or bitten. The thing is, I hate weapon retention because no matter how good you are, somebody out there is better, bigger and stronger. In short you will at some point end up dead. I'm just not inclined for it to be today, hence the shot, stabbed, bitten element.

Biker
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Old May 12, 2010, 07:27 AM   #22
booker_t
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Quote:
mid thigh as an attack point
Thanks CWP. And indeed, nick the femeral artery and the fight is immediately asymetric. 3-4 inches above the knee, inside quarter of the thigh.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...c0/Gray550.png

Disabling the muscles connecting hip to knee would also be devastating.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...b2/Gray430.png

There are lots of other juicy spots to touch. I was turned on to the "Libre Fighting" approach. Basic philosophy is if the knives are out, you should be attacking in a way to bust through the opponent's defense, be it through direct thrusts or preferably lateral movement and slashes from the side, attacking kidneys, neck, throat, spinal cord, and generating massive blood loss from slashes down the back. This is contrary to a lot of other knife fighting doctrines which use blocks, including sacraficing your forearm to absorb the attacker's first strike and set up a counter. Personally, I'd rather take the gamble and use space/positioning to avoid a first strike, rather than potentially lose my arm but win the fight.

I'm sure this was discussed elsewhere:
http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...ith-handcuffs/

2-inch fixed blade. While folders are great for utility, there's a reason dedicated fighting knives are fixed.

Another training note: practice drawing your blade from less-than-ideal positions. On your back, side, stomach. With one arm pinned or held. With the attacker in front of you, or behind you. What woud you do if you're holding the attacker's arm with your left hand (or he's holding your's), and the blade is on the left side of your belt? Whatever it is, practice it. Remember the old "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" and get your footwork, balance and control of space down to 2nd nature. As an analogy, for those who thoroughly practice drawing from the holster, you likely also practice taking up slack in the trigger as you go from hands together/muzzle on target to full presentation/trigger squeeze. It's a transition that you've practiced in parts, and then put those parts together. Similarly, when training with the knife think ahead with an objective of where you want to deliver the blade and practice the small movements to before stringing them together. That way, you're more able to "improvise" when the time comes, because you can't train for everything.

Getting back to the OP, nearly anything around you can be a weapon. If you're on the ground outside, a handful of dirt in the eyes could save your life. Railings, steps, curbs, car fender, natural terrain features can all be used to gain advantage if you're near them.

I think the most important thing here is to be mentally prepared, to recognize the situation early (milliseconds count) and react swiftly. Never be complacent (speaking to LE here).
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Old May 12, 2010, 07:30 AM   #23
"JJ"
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WOW!

Double Naught Spy you kind of sound like a government employee! Probably in management? GEEEZ! It is a scenario! Everybody post what they think they would do. People then post the pluses or minuses to a reaction based on thier experience or knowledge. Then everybody who participates comes away a bit more prepared! It is one of the benefits of a "forum". I posted in my reply that I would like to think that I would do something to keep me out of this situation. But, once you think you can't be distracted is when it happens! If you don't like the scenario, say so. But is it necessary to rip the OP apart? Just asking? "JJ"
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Old May 12, 2010, 07:37 AM   #24
"JJ"
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good info Booker_t! I will look into the "Libre Fighting".
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