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Old April 20, 2010, 06:01 PM   #26
Hawg Haggen
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Mykeal and I don't always see eye to eye on a few things but we're totally in agreement on the use of flasks and measures. So if we both agree maybe you ought to seriously rethink it Doc.
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Old April 20, 2010, 07:13 PM   #27
troy_mclure
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the flask was the way they did it back in the day. but just plinking at the range i can use a measure.
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Old April 20, 2010, 08:47 PM   #28
Doc Hoy
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Hawg and Mykeal

I have a couple of empty shells with handles soldered to them. One is .45 and the other is .38. Maybe I'll hunt them up and see what weights they throw. I used to use the .38 for .36 cal and the .45 for .44. I filled them up without really knowing what charge I was getting. I read (I think) in Shotgun News that these two empty cartridge casings provided an acceptable charge.

I can be pretty stubborn but you two guys know what you are talking about.
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Old April 20, 2010, 08:56 PM   #29
Hawg Haggen
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Quote:
the flask was the way they did it back in the day
Actually for revolvers paper cartridges were predominant.
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Old April 20, 2010, 10:32 PM   #30
bedbugbilly
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In reference to "what they used back then" - remember, much of what we know is based on existing pieces that survived and first person accounts. I'm not trying to stir anything up here - believe me - that is not my intention. In regards to flasks and horns - my grandfather had neither. He was born in 1867. His rifle and accouterments remain in the family. His rifle was a .45 caliber plain's style, iron mounted halfstock - very similar in appearance to a Hawken. He kept his black powder in an empth small glass bottle with a cork that had originally held "marichino cherries" (sp?). His greased patches were kept in the patchbox on the buttstock - the patchbox still contains a number of them. His lead balls were kept in a leather pouch with a drawstring and a tin of caps was kept in the small pouch as well. He cast his bullets with the typical type bag mold and cut the sprues off with the sprue cutter that operated by closing the handles. He didn't worry about "weighing" his lead balls, etc. - he used them as they came from the mold and I have heard tales of his ability with the rifle and he evidently was a good marksman. I doubt that he poured powder directly from the glass bottle into the bore of the rifle. However, with the use of a powder flask and shot flask, this was commonly done by those using shotguns when hunting. Remember though, we are not talking about firing many shots, one right after the other. Myself, I use a horn and a measure when loading longarms. For revolvers, I have often used a flask just as Doc does. But, before loading the revolver, a respectible amount of time has passed since the last rounds were fired. While combustible cartridges were used in revolvers, it must be remembered that not ALL owners of revolvers used them. In some locations, they might not be available. For some, they might not be affordable. The Colt flasks in cased sets as well as the hundreds that were sold individually were sold for a purpose. In regards to the self-closing top that the gentleman posted a photo of that he uses on a can of powder at Friendship - I have seen many use these on the line at the Nationals. They seem to work well and are very popular. I have wondered many times though, how many pounds of powder gets spilled on the loading benches and on the ground during a National shoot. I am not picking at anyone about this - just stating an observation. A fellow uses the can (or horn or flask) and fills his measure at the loading bench and we all know that there are often "spills" or accidental run-overs. I've seen it - we all have. I've often wondered what would happen if at the end of a week's shooting, if you cleared everyond away from the line and dropped a match - what the results would be. Just an interesting thought that I hope never happens. I give 99.9% of the shooters and the range officers at Friendship a lot of credit as safety comes first. I've seen it while observing and I've seen it while on the line shooting. I've seen and read enough of Doc's posts to know that even though he usually shoots alone, I would feel 100% safe in shooting next to him because he IS aware of safety measures. My personal feeling is that the use of a flask has it's place depending upon the circumstances. Initial loading - I am comfortable with it as long as cylinders are empty and "cold". Loading and shooting one cylinder after another - I'm going to use a measure. The same for shooting longarms. I use a horn and a measure. I do carry a flask when I'm shooting my .36 underhammer because I have a shooting bag set up just for that rifle. However, I still use a measure with that for two reasons - I've developed the habit of using a measure when shooting a rifle and because I've got a larger spout on the flask that what I use to shoot the rifle with and I've just never gotten around to getting the correct spout. So - I don't know if I'm agreeing . . . . or disagreeing . . . or agreeing to disagree. Doc . . . if you're comfortable with it and follow safe procedures, that is your option and I respect you for it. I'd much rather shoot next to a 100 "Docs" that one of these "yahoos" who goes out and gets himself a blackpowder firearm and never gets any instruction on it or how to load and shoot it safely - we've all seen 'em and I know that you know what I'm talking about. I've shot for over 45 years and like any sport, I've seen my share of accidents like anybody else. Our job is to help each other out and our goal should be to explore all of the options in a safe and enjoyable manner. This is just my $2.00 worth of my 2 cents. And don't even bring up the subject of the IDIOTS who have to smoke while they are using and carrying blackpowder . . . my response on thaqt will be a book!
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Old April 21, 2010, 05:26 AM   #31
Doc Hoy
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Bedbug

Thanks for the post.

Lets think where this all started.

Troy, a shooter who is new to black powder, asked about accesories. I told him I used a flask and while I did not say it outright I load directly from the flask into the chamber. In this way, I was telling Troy it was okay for him to do it too. I went on to say that I disagreed with those who feel that loading from the flask to the chamber is dangerous. Obviously I was not thinking when I made that statement since every aspect of handling powder is dangerous and that method is especially dangerous. I left that part out.

The advice I gave Troy was bad advice because of two reasons. I did not mention the dangers involved nor did I talk about how to reduce those dangers including the fact that these dangers can never be reduced to zero. Troy is right to pay close attention to Hawg and Mykeal and then, after he completely understands the process and the dangers, if he decides he can use a flask within the limits of his tolerance for risk and his safety practices, it will be his decision alone. It should never be mine. Had he hurt himself, I think everyone would agree that I am responsible.

I like to keep things in perspective when it comes to safety. I have some opinions which many in my professional field (and in this forum) have found to be unsettling. But that is a discussion for a different thread.

Troy is doing the right thing in using supreme care as be begins his journey. Mykeal and Hawg were correct in pointing out the very real dangers in my practice. I haven't decided if I am going to change my practices but there is value in the fact that I am taking a second look.
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Old April 21, 2010, 07:40 AM   #32
mykeal
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Gentlemen,

The next round is on me, if you please.

Barkeep - the bottle. Keep the cork.
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Old April 21, 2010, 09:58 AM   #33
Hardcase
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I asked my dad about pouring from the flask last night when he called. He's a regular fount of information about amazing stuff.

His grandfather (my great-grandfather) had an 1860 Colt that he shot every now and then. Dad remembers that he would charge it from the flask, filling it up just a bit short of full, then put the ball over that. No wad, no grease, just powder and a ball. Why did he do it that way? Because his dad (my great-great-granddad) did it that way.

I don't think that this was a problem back then because nobody shot round after round after round from their guns. They loaded 'em up for a purpose - in great-grandpa's case, it was for hunting - and were very frugal with both powder and lead. "Target shooting" was hunting and you didn't take many shots. Thus, that revolver was always loaded cold. Oh, and his "flask" was a small tobacco tin.

I sure do wish that they'd hung onto that revolver (and the many, many other guns that great-grandpa had). It ended up in the trash, along with a lot of other guns when he moved from North Dakota to Idaho. Back in the '30s, things were a little different . At least we've still got the 1862 Springfield.
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Old April 22, 2010, 08:21 AM   #34
madcratebuilder
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Quote:
I really am out-voted on the flask issue. I am going to continue and I hope you don't read about me or see the flash. If you suddenly stop seeing my posts without explanation, you may infer what happened.


But I will stop recommending flasks for others.
Doc, I'm with you on this and I think a little common sense goes a long ways here. I would never load my rifles straight from the powder horn, but I have no problem loading a revolver straight from the flask. Now if I was using paper cartridges I would probably not because there is the possibility of embers in the chambers.

I shoot six chambers, either walk to the target or look at it with the spotting scope, laugh about what a bad shot I am, then go set down to reload. I really doubt there are any glowing embers still in the chambers. At least there hasn't been......so far. If you shoot six and immediately reload then use your head and use a measure. It's just common sense isn't it?
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Old April 22, 2010, 10:57 AM   #35
Doc Hoy
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MCB

Quote:
I shoot six chambers, either walk to the target or look at it with the spotting scope, laugh about what a bad shot I am, then go set down to reload.
Yes....I do precisely the same thing accept for the laugh....(I am generally in tears.) In addition, I take a marker or tape along to the target to mark the holes, so that takes a little time. I recently began loading with a press rather than loading in the pistol. That does two things which I did not anticipate when I made the decision. The first thing it does is to add time between the last shot and the first reload which I think is good. The second thing it does is to give me the opportunity to experience the cylinder. I get to hold it in my hand to feel the heat and to look into each chamber to see if there are any nasties to swab out. I have come to realize that if you load with the cylinder in the pistol it is difficult to know what remains of the last shots. That alone is a good reason to think about loading with a press.

I don't shoot long arms any more but when I did, I loaded with one of the home made empty case measures. I seem to remember that was a 7.62 cut off at the shoulder. I also seem to remember thinking it was about 45 to 50 grains of black powder.

I wonder how many old timers loaded from the palm of their hand....
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Old April 24, 2010, 03:20 AM   #36
CajunPowder
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No flask newbie

I take the issue of charging a chamber with powder from a flask very seriously. I play the fiddle, (and guitars and all sorts of stuff), as well as make a violin every blue moon, (started with kits).

So to damage my fingers alone is a nightmare, (literally have had nightmares about this).

With 6 ounces of Holy Black going off in a Traditions Brass flask !!!

I take Hawg's warning to heart.

HAWG you keep telling them and NEVER let up.

All we need is some pretty girl or young man getting a hand blowd off and Obama and the gun grabbers will be all over that, yeah!

So I see the REAL need for somebody like grymster to create a flask spout that will accept an adapter and the adapter takes a powder measure.

One tips the flask over, opens a valve, the measure is filled. A valve is closed on the measure that scrapes over the top of the measure, the flask is tipped up and any overpour falls back into the flask. Then you finally close the main flask valve. Remove the measure and pour into the chamber or down the muzzle of a rifle, etc...

Put the measure back onto the adapter and pour again.

Is there any product that exists like this, if not, with the shortages of ammo, brass and the difficulty of getting powder blah, blah, blah.

I think there would be a market for something like this as more and more people come into these markets.

If you could sell 10,000 of these on Cabela's over the course of several years and sell them for $19.99 and make $5 profit off each ... well ... then the government would get their share wouldn't they!

But a lot of people would be very happy to have that ... you'd be famous with folks like all of us ... (would that be good) ?
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Old April 24, 2010, 04:47 AM   #37
Hawg Haggen
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Quote:
I take Hawg's warning to heart.

HAWG you keep telling them and NEVER let up.
I'm not the most safety conscious guy here-ask Mykeal but on that i am adamant.
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Old April 24, 2010, 07:41 AM   #38
Doc Hoy
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Cajun

I started a design for a device that goes on top of a 1400 flask. It is made of clear plastic and resembles a revolver. You shift the powder chamber under the opening of the flask, let the powder into the chamber by opening the flask valve.(I will call that the "charge" position) Then when you have the right charge (the powder chamber is graduated) you rotate the powder chamber 180 degrees to the opening so the powder can be dumped into the chamber of the pistol (or whatever). (I will call that the "load" position) The spout on the opening is not in line with the opening of the flask. It is separated by about an inch and a quarter. And both openings are sealed when the powder chamber is moved to the load position.

In this way, the only powder that ever gets close to the barrel of the weapon or the chamber of the revolver is the charge that you intended to put there anyway. If it happens to explode, the blowback would be directed along the side of the powder flask.

Today (when I get off work) I am going to work on a small loading press I cooked up. But when I finish that I may pull out the parts of that loading device and play with it a bit more.
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Old May 7, 2010, 03:43 AM   #39
HandC
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combustible envelope cartridges

The new H&C set for 44-100 combustible envelope cartridges.
Hyper combustible paper and glue !!!

http://www.hc-collection.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?ActionID=67174912&PBCATID=678382&PBCATName=Cartouches%20papier%20combustible%20calibre%20.44''%20revolver%20poudre%20noire[/URL]
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