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Old April 3, 2010, 10:45 PM   #1
Stuohn
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Question

Ok Ive lived in Texas for 28 yrs before I (stupidly) moved to IL for a year. Well I'm back now and first thing I did was go to DPS and per their requirements turned in my IL DL. Well, since the Texas DL that I turned in to IL has not expired yet all I had to do was fill out the card for a replacement TX DL. Well they gave me the paper temp DL and I still have my FOID from IL so these together make my ID for now.

So I went to a gun last weekend 03/27 and was talking to a guy (at a booth) and we decided to make a trade. Then I remember about my ID and ask him if its ok. He asks how long had I been in TX. I say @3 weeks. Says he cant because the law says i have to be here 90 days. I ask what law (ie federal, state, or what). He says on the ATF form its asks and it is a no go if you dont live tx for at least 90 days. I said if he wasnt comfortable with the trade its cool but, I did ask if I could see a copy of the ATF form. He then got loud and said I will not break the law for you. So I left the booth and continued to browse.

Ok, now was he right about the 90 day wait or is that only if I'm not a US citizen?
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Old April 3, 2010, 11:04 PM   #2
NavyLT
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That is only if you are not a US citizen. HOWEVER, if this was a dealer, your paper driver's license would not work for Texas ID anyway, if it doesn't have a photograph:

27 CFR 478.11:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.1.1&idno=27

Identification document. A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State, a foreign government, political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi- governmental organization which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

All that is required according to the same CFR for residency is presence in a state with an intent to make a home in that state (no minimum time requirement is specified):

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
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Old April 4, 2010, 07:45 AM   #3
blume357
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The guy was wrong at least as I see it....

he could have sold you the gun even if you were still a 'legal' resident of IL and just had a second vacation home in Texas.

Some will say I'm wrong on this, but I don't think so.

with all that said, you did right to walk away. The private seller has the right to sell to who ever the heck he chooses and even use rules that are wrong.

No need to fret over it.

the thing is I bet he was not even going to ask for ID or proof of residency until you mentioned it. I would be leery of this too if I was the guy... I bet red flags go up with this and he thinks it is possibly an ATF set up.

Oh and welcome back into the U.S.A. (Even though some folks in Texas would say or wish different)
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Old April 4, 2010, 11:28 AM   #4
NavyLT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blume357
Oh and welcome back into the U.S.A. (Even though some folks in Texas would say or wish different)
May I offer a dissuading argument to that statement? It is illegal in Texas to carry a firearm in public capable of being used for self defense UNLESS one pays to obtain training and pays a tax to obtain the state's permission to do so. That dissuades me, personally, from referring to Texas as "the U.S.A.".
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Old April 4, 2010, 03:58 PM   #5
Webleymkv
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Quote:
That is only if you are not a US citizen. HOWEVER, if this was a dealer, your paper driver's license would not work for Texas ID anyway, if it doesn't have a photograph:
Not sure if it would work or not, but the OP stated that he does still have his IL FOID. The FOID does have a photo one it (at least it did before I moved to a more gun-friendly state). I wonder if perhaps that in conjuction with his temporary TX DL would constitute a TX phot ID?
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Old April 4, 2010, 04:16 PM   #6
NavyLT
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Not sure if it would work or not, but the OP stated that he does still have his IL FOID. The FOID does have a photo one it (at least it did before I moved to a more gun-friendly state). I wonder if perhaps that in conjuction with his temporary TX DL would constitute a TX phot ID?
According to the CFR and the various rulings by the ATF, it probably would.... but it would be next to impossible to convince an FFL of that, unfortunately.
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Old April 4, 2010, 05:26 PM   #7
Stuohn
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First, Thanks for the quick responses.

I figured I was probably good but, the dealer was nervous about the deal. Not really worried about the trade. In most people's opinion he would have made out better on the deal anyway.

I just like to get the facts of whats legal/illegal. I guess it just annoys me when people give me wrong information, because they where too lazy to make sure it was correct before they repeat it.
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Old April 7, 2010, 12:56 PM   #8
H.W. French
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Run!

Welcome back to Texas, but keep running. That paper "temp" license was a pain. Try getting a beer with that. My DL took two weeks to be delivered. My special lady friend had to wait 5! On top of everything else You have to go to the DPS for the license and then accross town to another building to register your vehicle for an outrageous price. But that was El Paso. I lasted 6 months in Texas and then moved down the road to New Mexico. It's like a different U.S. Friendlier gun laws and all the Public Land (BLM) you want to shoot on. Just remember to shut the gate!
Best of luck.
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Old April 7, 2010, 02:30 PM   #9
dogtown tom
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Quote:
NavyLT Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blume357
Oh and welcome back into the U.S.A. (Even though some folks in Texas would say or wish different)
May I offer a dissuading argument to that statement? It is illegal in Texas to carry a firearm in public capable of being used for self defense UNLESS one pays to obtain training and pays a tax to obtain the state's permission to do so. That dissuades me, personally, from referring to Texas as "the U.S.A.".
Huh?

No such Texas law.
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Old April 7, 2010, 04:45 PM   #10
NavyLT
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So, in Washington State, without any license whatsoever, it is perfectly legal for me to walk into Walmart with a loaded handgun carried in plain view in a holster, buy a Subway sandwich in the Subway at that Walmart, sit there and eat it and walk out.

Can I do that in Texas? No. Open carry is illegal in Texas, violating Penal Codes 46.02 and 46.035. So, can I conceal the handgun in Texas and do the same thing, without a license. No. That action would be illegal as well violating Penal Code 46.02.

Now, in order to obtain a Texas Concealed Handgun License, according to Government Code 411.174 (7), proficiency with a handgun must be proven and 411.174 (6) requires a "fee" of $140.00 to be paid to the state. To me, a fee paid to the state for their permission to perform an act is a tax...

I rest my case.
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Old April 7, 2010, 09:31 PM   #11
dogtown tom
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Quote:
NavyLT:... It is illegal in Texas to carry a firearm in public capable of being used for self defense UNLESS one pays to obtain training and pays a tax to obtain the state's permission to do so.
Quote:
NavyLT: ...Can I do that in Texas? No. Open carry is illegal in Texas, violating Penal Codes 46.02 and 46.035. So, can I conceal the handgun in Texas and do the same thing, without a license. No. That action would be illegal as well violating Penal Code 46.02.

Now, in order to obtain a Texas Concealed Handgun License, according to Government Code 411.174 (7), proficiency with a handgun must be proven and 411.174 (6) requires a "fee" of $140.00 to be paid to the state. To me, a fee paid to the state for their permission to perform an act is a tax...

I rest my case.

Note your use of the word FIREARM, not HANDGUN in the first quote above. Magically, the "firearm" disappears in the second quoted passage and now this is about "handguns".

You cite the Texas Penal Code, yet leave quite a bit of information out. For example:

1. It is perfectly legal under Texas law to openly carry rifles and shotguns in a public place as long as you do not intentionally or knowingly display the firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm. There is no training required, there is no fee or tax paid to the state.

2. It is perfectly legal for me to wear my handgun in an open and unconcealed manner in a number of places. On my own property or property under my control, in my own business or in a business under my control AND most importantly, when engaged in a sporting activity (such as hunting or target shooting) or traveling to or from such an activity. Can I open carry in a WalMart? No, but the store manager could.

3. Your claim of "...It is illegal in Texas to carry a firearm in public capable of being used for self defense...". There is no Texas law that mentions anything about whether any firearm "is capable of being used for self defense."

4. UNRESTRICTED "open carry" of "handguns" is illegal in Texas. I believe this is true of every state that has a so called "open carry" law. There are simply places you cannot carry any firearm, (long gun or handgun)whether concealed or not.

5. It is perfectly legal, (as long as I am not engaged in a criminal activity, in a criminal street gang, or otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm) to have a concealed handgun on or about my person as long as I am in a vehicle owned by me or under my control or en route to said vehicle. As a matter of fact Texas law REQUIRES that the handgun be concealed while inside the vehicle.

Here is an excellent summary of Texas Firearms Laws:
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=637
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Old April 7, 2010, 10:13 PM   #12
elwaynum1
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God Bless TEXAS!!

Just felt the need to contribute to the state battle...

Quote:
So, in Washington State, without any license whatsoever, it is perfectly legal for me to walk into Walmart with a loaded handgun carried in plain view in a holster, buy a Subway sandwich in the Subway at that Walmart, sit there and eat it and walk out.

Can I do that in Texas? No. Open carry is illegal in Texas, violating Penal Codes 46.02 and 46.035. So, can I conceal the handgun in Texas and do the same thing, without a license. No. That action would be illegal as well violating Penal Code 46.02.

Now, in order to obtain a Texas Concealed Handgun License, according to Government Code 411.174 (7), proficiency with a handgun must be proven and 411.174 (6) requires a "fee" of $140.00 to be paid to the state. To me, a fee paid to the state for their permission to perform an act is a tax...

I rest my case.
Looks like you'll have to be walking to that Wal-Mart of yours because according to http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050 :

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.



Last edited by elwaynum1; April 7, 2010 at 10:24 PM.
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Old April 7, 2010, 10:55 PM   #13
rwilson452
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In PA Open carry over 18 and not a prohibited person. No license required. A short list of no carry places. no drinking restriction for those over 21. PA is a shall issue state. A license to carry a firearm is issued by your local sheriff except in Philly. There it is Philly PD that issues. In Philly you need a license to carry to carry at all. Once you have a license to carry it is good all over the state. Without a license there are travel restrictions. You can't carry it in a car loaded or not except to a range, gunsmith, FFL or your hunting destination. and back home of course.

Most counties charge around $25-$30 for it. No training requirement. A one page state police form in most counties.
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Old April 8, 2010, 09:56 AM   #14
NavyLT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwaynum1
God Bless TEXAS!!

Just felt the need to contribute to the state battle...

Looks like you'll have to be walking to that Wal-Mart of yours because according to http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050 :

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
Negative, elwaynum.....

Because if I chose to get a Texas CHL, I would have to pay $100 to $140 for a CHL training class and then pay $140 for the state to issue the permit. $240 to $280 for the whole process?!? No way.....

I'll just walk into my local Washington LEO agency, just like any other American with a clean record can do here, with nothing but an ID document, the fingerprints on my fingers, and a mere $55.25 and have my CPL within 30days (non-residents wait up to 60 days). And then I can have my loaded handgun anywhere that I want in my car.... under the seat, in the glovebox, in a holster, duct taped to my forehead or hanging from the rearview mirror (except I would have to take down the fuzzy dice). God Bless Washington!
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Old April 8, 2010, 11:29 AM   #15
elwaynum1
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Negative, elwaynum.....

Because if I chose to get a Texas CHL, I would have to pay $100 to $140 for a CHL training class and then pay $140 for the state to issue the permit. $240 to $280 for the whole process?!? No way.....

I'll just walk into my local Washington LEO agency, just like any other American with a clean record can do here, with nothing but an ID document, the fingerprints on my fingers, and a mere $55.25 and have my CPL within 30days (non-residents wait up to 60 days). And then I can have my loaded handgun anywhere that I want in my car.... under the seat, in the glovebox, in a holster, duct taped to my forehead or hanging from the rearview mirror (except I would have to take down the fuzzy dice). God Bless Washington!
$55.25 still sounds like a tax to me. And, whats wrong with having to be trained. I kinda like to have as much information as I can dealing with the safety of my firearm and with the laws and how they pertain to my self-defense.

BTW - I paid nothing for my training

God Bless Texas!
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Old April 8, 2010, 12:29 PM   #16
NavyLT
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Yes, I totally agree that the $55.25 is still a tax to obtain a license for a privilege!

Nothing is wrong with acquiring training, but I feel that government required training and licensing to carry a firearm is an infringement on a person's right to keep and bear arms.

My only point in all this is that there is perception that Texas is such an easy and liberal state regarding the carrying of firearms, specifically handguns, when, in reality, Texas is more restrictive than the majority of states.
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Old April 8, 2010, 10:16 PM   #17
elwaynum1
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My only point in all this is that there is perception that Texas is such an easy and liberal state regarding the carrying of firearms, specifically handguns, when, in reality, Texas is more restrictive than the majority of states.
Only restrictive, as you said, in the regard of carrying handguns in public. Yet, Texas still is more liberal in most other aspects of the law regarding firearms and self-defense.
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