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Old April 6, 2010, 01:52 AM   #51
LaserSpot
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Why even bother bringing it? If you are going to bring a backup firearm in the form of a pistol it should be at the minimum a 357 Magnum revolver. Only Magnum revolver rounds have the sectional density and velocity needed to dispatch large animals.
This is absurd, you don't need a magnum to give the coup de grâce. The best reason to carry a sidearm is to avoid the ugly mess you can get with a high powered rifle at close range. Any .32 or .380 would normally do the job without excessive hearing damage and the need to push the eyeballs back in.

I don't think the OP would be hauling an M1 if he planned to use the .45. I also doubt that the .45 was planned to be the primary gun in case the M1 falls apart; my understanding is that M1 Garands always work. Yes, he shouldn't have been so confident to sling the rifle, but this was an unplanned situation. It sounds like the choice was to sling some lead at close range, or hope to snap-shoot it in the butt with the rifle before it's gone from sight.
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Old April 6, 2010, 01:23 PM   #52
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Elmer was a neat old guy who has made me a lot of $ as I reprinted the 1961 Ed. of Sixguns in 1991 and have sold 1000s BUT, among those old enough to remember the live man, he is affectionaly known a "the old loud mouth with the big hat."
Based on the amount of game he took with his hot load 44 Specials, 45 Colts and late in life with the 44 Magnum, I don't think he had any real doubts about the effect of a large hole punched through both sides of any ungulate.
BTW the 230 BH +P went through 12 inches of water. Water is a lot tougher medium than lungs.
This Elk was taken at 18 paces with a c1809 British Baker flinter, 61 caliber, whose ballistics are close to a 16 gauge deerslug. Broke a rib in, took out both lungs and broke a rib exiting. He went 20 whole yards spraying blood like two firehoses. Zero expansion or about the size of a BH 230 +P HP ACP. full expanded....... Energy doesn't mean diddly, it's the size of the hole.
If you have not read the article or tested the load in ballistic medium you are , IMHO, just repeating what you heard sometime somewhere.





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Old April 6, 2010, 02:37 PM   #53
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I have actually sat with Elmer in his trophy room and had coffee with him,in Salmon.
I am waiting on a couple of Badger .50 cal bbls for some rolling blocks because a buddy and I intend to do a BPCR Bison hunt.
Once upon a time in Alaska in a very small tent,my former spouse asked me not to let the bear bite her again.He ended up with a direct frontal 12 ga slug into his mouth he went down and got back up.The slug broke up on his lower teeth and did not reach the spine.
One day at an informal dump where I used to shoot,someone had dumped the head of a hog.It wasn't very deep,forehead to the cut,maybe 5 or 6 inches.It was not frozen,this was warm weather.I leaned it against a piece of plywould and put a wheel from my SBH into it.240 gr JSPs.The plywood was not penetrated.Lead and jacket frags were on the ground in front of the plywood.
I have nothing against large slow projectiles.
I think a coup de grace with a 1911 is fine.
If someone has done their homework and really knows what they are doing,fine.
I still will not encourage elk hunting wih a 45ACP.It is a fine,balanced combat round or stopping a man.It is not overly powerful for manstopping.An elk is considerably larger and tougher than a man.
A 45 ACP will kill an elk.Maybe not quickly most every time..In Colorado,a .50 cal muzzle loader is minimum for elk,and the MV available from a black powder muzzleloader is considerably superior to what a 1911 will do.More important,shot placement with a good BP rifle is far more precise than with a handgun.
In the end,I hope folks will approach hunting elk with a tool appropriate to give an elk a clean death even when something goes a bit wrong.

Seems like,Brandy,you know what you are doing,and I appreciate your passion.I think we are looking at it from different directions.
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Old April 6, 2010, 02:40 PM   #54
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Federal Hydra-Shock ammo,,,it will expand and penetrate.
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Old April 7, 2010, 11:02 AM   #55
Brandy
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I repeat:

Energy doesn't mean diddly, it's the size of the hole.
If you have not read the article or tested the load in ballistic medium you are , IMHO, just repeating what you heard sometime somewhere.

Frozen hog head are a lot harder the two layers of elk skin and two pulpy lungs.
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Old April 7, 2010, 03:20 PM   #56
HiBC
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And I repeat"The hog head was not frozen",which is proof positive that you can read something and come to a conclusion 180 degrees from the truth.
You also do not know me,or my experience,and so in regard to your comments about me,you do not know what you are talking about.
Now,lets be gentlemen.
Very nice elk! Nice rifle!!You hunt with style!
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Old April 7, 2010, 04:55 PM   #57
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Laserspot, his shots with his 1911 were not a coup de grace. Also if you read the threat correctly, this thread is about whether or not the 45 ACP is appropriate for Elk. Not head shots. A 22LR will take down an Elk with a head shot. That's not the question. If you know how to hunt properly you know that you always have your rifle at the ready when approaching your kill. Most experienced hunters actually poke the animal with the rifle barrel to make sure its dead. You don't really need a backup firearm if you know what you are doing. Elk can be pretty dangerous up close. You should have your firearm ready to go as you approach it. You never assume an animal is dead. Out of ethics you should make absolutely sure the animal is dead before you start slicing it up. The best way to do that is to poke it with a rifle barrel.

I never said the M1 was an incapable firearm in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it. The 30-06 will take down anything on this continent with a good shot. The key is getting off a good shot, which in this case wasn't done. If you can't trust that you can make a shot at the distance you are shooting it is unethical to take the shot.

Last edited by cje1980; April 7, 2010 at 05:12 PM.
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Old April 7, 2010, 05:09 PM   #58
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I'm with HiBC on this one. If you do enough research you can probably find a 45 ACP load that might work on an Elk. Shooting bullets into water to me proves diddly squat. I will remain skeptical that there are loads appropriate to being fired from a semi-auto in 45 ACP that have the energy and bullet construction to not only penetrate deep into an Elk but also cause enough tissue damage. To me I think the 45 ACP will either sail through an Elk with FMJ and cause little damage or not penetrate enough with JHP if they expand.

I will have to disagree with Brandy that the size of the bullet is all that means anything. If that were the case the 380 ACP is just as good as the 357 Mag as a hunting or self defense cartridge. A 30-30 is every bit as good as a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag. That of course is absurd. Anybody educated on the matter knows that the 380 ACP simpy isn't as effective as the 357 Mag. The Magnum will penetrate and expand better and do much more damage than the 380 ACP. Comparing the 45 ACP to the 44 Magnum or a large caliber rifle is like comparing the 380 ACP to the 357 Mag. Or like comparing the 30-30 to the 300 Win Mag.

IMO, the only 45 ACP loading that will reliable penetrate an Elk is FMJ but I would strongly suggest that it would take the Elk quite a while to go down. As has been seen in autopsies, FMJ from handguns is very poor at wounding, regardless of caliber. Brandy, there are criminals that have soaked up a magazine of slugs from a 45 ACP and took a while to go down. An Elk is an entirely different beast. I'm having a hard time believing that a commercial ammunition maker would develop a self defense loading that would penetrate that much.
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Old April 7, 2010, 08:59 PM   #59
LaserSpot
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Quote:
cje1980 said:
Laserspot, his shots with his 1911 were not a coup de grace. Also if you read the threat correctly, this thread is about whether or not the 45 ACP is appropriate for Elk.
Yes, the shots with the 1911 were the coup de grâce (you need to re-read or look up the term).

No, the OP didn't ask if the 45 ACP is appropriate for hunting Elk, he asked why his bullet didn't expand (the thread is off track).
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Old April 7, 2010, 10:19 PM   #60
Art Eatman
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Probably he should have not referenced the whole story; just asked, "Why didn't the bullet expand in meat?"

And so, enough...
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