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Old March 23, 2010, 04:10 PM   #1
home sick
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Pressure problem in a 22-250 from new brass to once fired

I've been fire forming 22-250 brass and found a fair load in doing so but when I neck sized the once fired stuff I am building pressure. All cases are trimed, primer pockets and flash holes cleaned, necks are cleaned not turned. Any easy answers, as I have not had this happen before. Remington brass, Sierra 52 gr. bullets IMR 4064, and Win primers.
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Old March 23, 2010, 04:28 PM   #2
Don H
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Quote:
but when I neck sized the once fired stuff I am building pressure.
Could you expand on that statement a bit, please?
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Old March 23, 2010, 05:05 PM   #3
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Do you mean that they have harder bolt lift after the fire forming? This is to be expected. Another thing to expect is that after the 4th firing, they will be harder than hell to chamber and you'll have to FL size them. And if you do fire the hard to chamber rounds, they'll have EXTREMELY hard bolt lift. I've switched to just FL sizing everything. Too much of a pain.
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Old March 23, 2010, 08:28 PM   #4
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I should have explained better

I am shooting a T/C Encore , the rounds load easy and extract easy but the primers are very flat. There Win. primers and are as hard as any thing I've found on the market. As I said before the new brass does not build pressure but the once fired flattens the primer right out. I guess my next step is to back off a grain or two and see what it does. I've just never had this happen before, my past experience has been from new to once fired I'd have to goose it a tad.
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Old March 24, 2010, 08:27 AM   #5
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Homesick, I have heard and read on the net that one should not just re-neck brass for the TC Encore. The brass also NEEDS to be FL, so in theory, fireforming is a waste of time. Sorry, hope this helps.
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Old March 24, 2010, 08:55 AM   #6
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I am finding out slow but sure

I backed off on some test loads this AM, accuracy went from 3/4" to 2" and cases were full of smuge. So backing off was not the answer. I guess the next step is to full lenght size and see how that goes.
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Old March 24, 2010, 09:03 AM   #7
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I'm betting that you have a headspace problem.

There is too much headspace. When the gun fires, the round is pushed forward until it contacts the inside of the chamber, as the primer builds pressure it is pushed out of it's pocket, when the powder is ignited, it blows the case back against the breech face and jams the primer back into it's pocket, flattening it.

Here is the correct way to set headspace in an Encore.

http://bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=172
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Old March 25, 2010, 05:26 PM   #8
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still not better

I went to the range today with neck sized reloads as well as full length sized same thing, no accuracy, smudged cases etc. how ever the full lenght sized cases did not smudge as far toward the head of the case as the neck sized did. Also about the head space my 25-06 for this gun does not do this and accuracy stays the same.
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Old March 25, 2010, 08:10 PM   #9
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What is a smudged case?

Im not sure what that means. Are you referring to a sooty layer on the outside of the brass?
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Old March 25, 2010, 09:27 PM   #10
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yes its like blow back burnt powder on the out side of the extracted case
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Old March 25, 2010, 10:53 PM   #11
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How much powder are you using? Soot on the outside of the case is more likely a sign of low pressure than high.

I'm still betting headspace. How are you controlling headspace?
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Old March 25, 2010, 11:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Soot on the outside of the case is more likely a sign of low pressure than high.

I'm still betting headspace.
I agree that a sooty case can be a sign of low pressure, but once fired neck sized brass (aka fireformed) should be larger than the unfired brass, thus filling up more of the chamber (and eating up excessive headspace), so I'm not quite sure if headspace is the answer here.

Homesick, are you using some type of shoulder bump die?

Can you post a pic of the normal and flattened primers?
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Old March 26, 2010, 03:42 PM   #13
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making progress

I went to the gunsmith today to check head space, it checked out fine. I did how ever shoot a few full length sized loads today. I had very little smudge on the brass, and what there was is on the upper neck and shoulder area. This still is some what hard to under stand but be it as it may, I can full length size this is not a problem. The accuracy is very bad, 2'' or better, from the 3/4" it has shot but I can work on that. I have loaded up 6 test loads 3 shots each, with IMR 4064, 52 gr Sierra HPBT, CCI primer, started at 33.5 and moved up a couple tenths for each load.
I don't have any pictures of flat primers as I have recycled the brass but if it happens this week end pictures will follow.
PS I agree soot on the out side of brass should tell you it's a low pressure load but 34 grains of 4064 is not low as the average for max is 35.5 gr. My process is to take 4 loading manuals add their max loads and divide by 4. This gives me an average of max. loads, I then reduce about 10% and work up 1/2 grain at a time. Most of my rifles shoot best a touch below max. except the 7mm mag it likes a full charge of 7828.

Last edited by home sick; March 26, 2010 at 05:07 PM. Reason: I had some bad english
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Old March 26, 2010, 05:41 PM   #14
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Got a chronograph?
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Old March 26, 2010, 06:08 PM   #15
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No but its on my wish list
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Old March 26, 2010, 07:25 PM   #16
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How did the gunsmith check the headspace?


Quote:
I agree soot on the out side of brass should tell you it's a low pressure load but 34 grains of 4064 is not low as the average for max is 35.5 gr.
Quickload says that 35.5gr of 4064 is no where close to a max load. It predicts a pressure of 55480psi with standard settings. The SAAMI max is 65000.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; March 26, 2010 at 07:47 PM.
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:30 PM   #17
William T. Watts
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Pressure problem in a 22-250 from new to once fired

I purchased 1500 (Brick and 1/2) of Winchester LR Standard primers a few months ago. I am now starting to use a few of them and found that they will flatten with the same load that CCI primers show no abnormal indications of high pressure. The loading is (30/06) once fired R-P cases, 48.8 gr of IMR4064, 150gr Nosler Solid Base Bullet (OAL is 3.295"), CCI primers appear normal (primer edge is round), Winchester LR primers are flattened (primer looks to be ironed flat, no edge to it) with this load. According to the Nosler handbook I have the starting load is 48.0 gr with this bullet, max is 52.0gr. The load I have been using is .8 of a gr above the starting load, you might try another brand of primer to make sure you haven't run into the same or similar lot of primers that are very soft!! My Winchester Primer lot number is Cal 401G. I've been doing this for 45 years and this is the first lot of Primers I've found with soft cups!! One last thought make sure your cases are trimmed to minimum length and the neck isn't being squeezed and interferring with bullet release.. William

Last edited by William T. Watts; March 26, 2010 at 10:43 PM.
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Old March 27, 2010, 04:15 PM   #18
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I just bought a brick of CCI std LR primers and will try them at next range visit. I found the same thing with my last batch of Win primers / same load gives different primer flatness.
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Old March 28, 2010, 06:24 PM   #19
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Much better results

Shot the test loads today with CCI primers, worked up to 34.4 IMR 4064 lower weight test loads had very slight soot, top load to this point 34.4 was soot free and 3/4" groups. Primers were not flattened at all even on the 34.4 loads. Thanks every one for your help on this.
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Old March 28, 2010, 09:15 PM   #20
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Unless I missed something, it seems to me that the high pressure signs you reported at the beginning of this thread were the result of working up a load with FLS cases. Then after fire forming for the purpose of neck sizing, you used your best load in the neck sized only cases, and thats the point that the high pressure signs showed up.

What may be happening is a case being blown out to the chamber walls may absorb some chamber pressure, while a tight fitting fire formed case will transfer the pressure/energy right to the chamber walls and the primer.

Hope this makes sense.
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Old March 28, 2010, 10:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Shot the test loads today with CCI primers, worked up to 34.4 IMR 4064 lower weight test loads had very slight soot, top load to this point 34.4 was soot free and 3/4" groups. Primers were not flattened at all even on the 34.4 loads. Thanks every one for your help on this.
Now if you only knew how fast they were going! Get a chronograph!!!
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