The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 8, 2010, 05:29 AM   #1
balazona
Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2008
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 85
DA/SA semi auto shotgun?

Why there is not any DA/SA semi auto shotgun by any manufacturer in the market.
A DA/SA shotgun will be as safe as any DA/SA pistol with loaded chamber.
Please share your thoughts.
balazona is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 06:27 AM   #2
Regolith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2008
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 400
Don't know why you'd want one.

I've been using long guns all my life, every single one of them with a trigger no heavier than 4 or 5 lbs. Some of them as light as 3. I've never had an ND because the trigger was too light. It confuses me as to why someone would deliberately make the trigger heavier than it needs to be.

The only time I'd find this acceptable would be in a handgun that does not have a manual safety, such as a revolver or a Glock. In those cases, the heavier trigger pull acts as a safety of sorts. On the other hand, every long gun I've ever handled has a built in safety of some kind, just like a M1911, that blocks the trigger and/or the sear from moving. This means it doesn't NEED to have a heavier trigger pull, as the safety can be engaged until such time as it's necessary to fire the weapon, which allows the operator to safely carry a loaded weapon.

Last edited by Regolith; February 8, 2010 at 06:34 AM.
Regolith is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 06:36 AM   #3
balazona
Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2008
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 85
Drop safe

But mostly semi auto shotguns are not drop safe.
balazona is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 06:44 AM   #4
Regolith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2008
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 400
A long gun can be made drop safe without making it DA/SA. The Mossberg 590A1, for instance, was designed to be drop safe but isn't a double action design. I believe it's simply a matter of putting a spring on the firing pin so it can't move freely. I believe you can also make the pin itself light enough so that a strike on the primer without the hammer behind it won't be heavy enough to set off the primer.
Regolith is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:23 AM   #5
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,411
We recently had a thread discussing the various ways to keep a pump shotgun at the ready. It came down to the two typical camps: 1. Round in the chamber, hammer cocked with the safety engaged vs. 2. Chamber empty and the hammer down (unlocked). There's the third condition with the camber empty and the hammer cocked, but not many folks consider it a "ready" condition. One member didn't like either version, he didn't want to have to pump in a shell and he didn't like the idea of having the hammer cocked. At the time, I opined that a shotgun with a SA/DA trigger would fit his bill. When you go to a ready condition with a loaded gun, you hit the de-cocker, not the safety. It would put the simplicity of the DA revolver's "just pull the trigger" in a shotgun.

I think there's a significant market for tactical and HD shotguns with SA/DA triggers and de-cockers once people get used to the idea. I don't want one on the Skeet field nor the duck blind; but, when something goes bump in the night… it would be nice not to have to have the gun in a compromise ready condition.

Scattergun Bob, or any any other senior tactical shotgun trainers out there… Do you have any experience with shotguns that have a similar trigger operation as your student's service handgun? IMHO, it make sense for the tactical shotgunner to have the same trigger operation with his shotgun as his sidearm. Or, is there some reason it's to be avoided?
zippy13 is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:37 AM   #6
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
While not an auto loader, Mossberg made a 590 DA pump... Why? I dunno...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:45 AM   #7
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 715
I think it was because LEO's were being issued sidearms with 8-9 pound pulls, and when switching to the 4-5 pound pull of a standard shottie they were getting unexpected dead guys. Or at least unexpected booms....

A hardware solution to a software problem, obviously.


Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:48 AM   #8
balazona
Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2008
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 85
I do agree

@zippy13,
i do agree with u that a HD shotgun specially a semi auto suppose to be DA/SA.
balazona is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:49 AM   #9
jaguarxk120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,956
Why would you drop a gun?
jaguarxk120 is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:55 AM   #10
balazona
Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2008
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 85
Why semi auto pistols are drop safe?

If a pistol can drop then a shotgun can be too.specialy in a stressful situation.
balazona is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 10:14 AM   #11
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Zippy - could you imagine your P-gun with an 8# pull? The flinches that would occur?

Quote:
But mostly semi auto shotguns are not drop safe.
OP - if you're in a situation where you might be dropping your gun before the first shot, the perhaps you need to leave the chamber empty. A DA pull won't help in that situation.

You're also forcing someone to focus on another aspect in what could be a highly stressful situation - does he really need to squeeze the trigger or lightly touch it? Doesn't matter if it is SD or tournament time - in either case, IMO, you'll be increasing the chances of a first shot miss.

Personally, I prefer NO safeties on my guns, because they aren't loaded until I am ready to shoot. Maybe that's why I prefer S&W and Glocks over 1911's - one less thing to think about.

YMMV
oneounceload is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 10:19 AM   #12
jaguarxk120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,956
I hope the lawyers don't read this post, just gives them fodder for law suits against the gun makers, then we'll all have double action shotguns and rifles with 10-15 pound trigger pulls.
jaguarxk120 is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 10:27 AM   #13
balazona
Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2008
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 85
Glock Lovers

I know Glock lovers who love Glock's so called "safe trigger" will bash this thread.
balazona is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 10:38 AM   #14
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Personally, I'm not a Glock "lover" - but I do own a few, along with 1911, revolvers, etc. This isn't about their trigger. Mossberg's safeties are manual as are Remington's. Neither that or a DA trigger is going to help in a drop situation. Why do you think it would?
oneounceload is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 03:07 PM   #15
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,411
Oneounceload,
I could be way off the mark with this; but, as I recall the whole "drop" question is really not about safety, but it's an embargo issue. To prevent the importation of "cheap Saturday-night specials" the US import regulations initiated the drop test, among other requirements. If I'm correct, it doesn't apply to domestic arms. You can buy a drop-susceptible US made Single Action Army replica revolver, but an imported version must pass the drop test.
zippy13 is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 03:15 PM   #16
KPSquared
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2009
Posts: 10
Mossberg 590DA1

I own a Mossberg 590DA1. Trigger pull is much longer than your single action shotgun, but it isn't that bad either. Racking the shotgun half-cocks the hammer. Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer the rest of the way before releasing it.

Trigger assembly is metal, has the thick barrel too like the 590A1. It did come with a plastic safety though. 590DA1 is stamped on the side of the receiver and bottom where you load. Serial # starts with DA...
KPSquared is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 04:45 PM   #17
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Maybe I missed the boat Zippy. All I have ever heard was a shotgun, if dropped on the butt hard enough, with a round in the chamber MAY go KABOOM. I'm not sure it is worth the risk - I lost a shooting friend when the same thing happened with his varmint rifle - shooting across the hood of his truck, he backed up to do something, his rifle started sliding, he went to grab it as the stock hit the ground and the 22-250 took most of his head off. So, in that regard, MY preference is to keep the chamber empty.
oneounceload is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:33 PM   #18
Shawn Dodson
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 16, 1998
Location: Titusville, FL, USA
Posts: 1,030
Zippy13 writes:
Quote:
There's the third condition with the camber empty and the hammer cocked, but not many folks consider it a "ready" condition.
It's referred to as "cruiser ready." All one has to do is hit the action release and work the action to chamber.
Shawn Dodson is offline  
Old February 8, 2010, 08:40 PM   #19
SigP6Carry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2009
Posts: 1,086
Quote:
It's referred to as "cruiser ready." All one has to do is hit the action release and work the action to chamber.
and prevents idiots from working your gun if they get their hands on it before you.
__________________
-liberal gun nut = exception to the rule-
-1.24274238 miles, because Russians don't need scopes-
-Gun control was the Klan's favorite law, how can you advocate a set of laws designed to allow the denigration of a people?-
SigP6Carry is offline  
Old February 9, 2010, 12:13 AM   #20
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,411
Shawn Dodson correctly observed:
Quote:
Quote:
Zippy13 writes
There's the third condition with the camber empty and the hammer cocked, but not many folks consider it a "ready" condition.
It's referred to as "cruiser ready." All one has to do is hit the action release and work the action to chamber.
Thomme added:
Quote:
and prevents idiots from working your gun if they get their hands on it before you.
I thought the condition was used to prevent the action from bouncing opening when a vertically stowed unit was subjected to a rough road. This is not a situation normally encountered by a HD gun. Past threads have discussed the merits of having having an empty chamber locked, or not. The one referenced, as I recall, was considering only loaded and cocked vs. unloaded and unlocked. Sorry if I inadvertently down-played the significance of locked and unloaded, or "cruiser" ready.
-----------
oneounceload responded to several comments about shotgun drop hazard:
Quote:
All I have ever heard was a shotgun, if dropped on the butt hard enough, with a round in the chamber MAY go KABOOM... MY preference is to keep the chamber empty.
We're in the same boat there. My safety of choice is an open action.
zippy13 is offline  
Old February 9, 2010, 02:51 AM   #21
SigP6Carry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2009
Posts: 1,086
Oh, no. Sorry, what I meant was this scenario:
some idiot gets their hands on your shotgun before you do (I don't know how, just make up the scenario before that) and they try to work the action, but because they're gun illiterate and fixin' for crack or something, they can't get the action to move. Because they don't know about the action bar release (or whatever that thing is called... I call it the "open button"). For me, since my gun won't be vertically mounted in a car going fast, this is the best reason for me to leave my shotgun in that position.

Also, I was wondering: are their any merits to leaving it with the action open?
__________________
-liberal gun nut = exception to the rule-
-1.24274238 miles, because Russians don't need scopes-
-Gun control was the Klan's favorite law, how can you advocate a set of laws designed to allow the denigration of a people?-
SigP6Carry is offline  
Old February 9, 2010, 04:58 AM   #22
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomme
Also, I was wondering: are their any merits to leaving it with the action open?
Only from a safety standpoint: If you see an open bolt, you know the gun is safe.

As a loaded ready condition, an open bolt would be a disaster. Remember, the open bolt occurs at mid cycle: Generally, a fresh round has been released from the mag and is resting on the carrier ready to be elevated to the bore. Anyone familiar with a pump action know that it functions best when operated smartly. If you lazily shuck your gun, all sorts of naughty things may happen. First, a slow pump may not properly eject the spent hull which will result in a jamb. Or, the fresh round may mis-align if elevated too slowly, also resulting in a jamb.

If you store your loaded pump with the action open, there's a good chance that the round will come off the carrier (lifter) and you'll jamb. The round may even fall out of the gun. The best way to keep the fresh round on the carrier is to not give it enough time to go astray.

If you've never tried this, after safely shooting a round, roll your pump on its side with the ejection port facing down. Now, smartly cycle the action… everything went okay, right? Next, repeat the test with a deliberately slow pump, there's a good chance the fresh shell will either fall out, or jamb.

The open bolt may offer a safer way to unload your pump. When clearing a loaded gun, many folks hold back the action lock and pump until the gun is empty. The downside being that each round has been chambered, with the possibility of an accidental discharge, and then indiscriminately ejected. Instead, open the bolt with the gun on its side and let each round fall out into your hand.
zippy13 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09793 seconds with 9 queries