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Old January 20, 2010, 08:25 PM   #1
troy_mclure
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point shooting better for dark?

i got to do a bit of night shooting yesterday, the only light was a 40w bug light about 50yd away.

it gave enough light to see shapes, and the silhouette of the target.

we were shooting at targets(10yd)

i found i was consistently more accurate with my p32 point shooting, than any of the other 4 guns we were shooting(xd40sc, usp40, c9, g22).
the usp and glock had night sites.

everybody shot all the guns, but i had the best groups by far with my p32 and point shooting. even tho i have 1/20th of the rounds thru it than my xd40sc.

oh, i fired 1 shot with my ruger sbh in .44mag, we were blinded for a couple of minutes!
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Old January 20, 2010, 10:36 PM   #2
Rich Keagy
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Were you shooting at silhouettes of your neighbor's bug lights?
I need some clarity here.
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Old January 21, 2010, 01:39 AM   #3
troy_mclure
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we were shooting human silhouette shaped targets illuminated by a bug light 50yd away.

it gave weak street light simulated illumination.
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Old January 21, 2010, 02:46 AM   #4
1911 Jim
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Part of the exercises we did for my security guard carry permit class, was shooting in low and very low light.

In the low light drill, all the lights in the range were turned off except the very last ones out at 50yds. When you'd shoot, the holes glowed in the target as the additional light came through. That was very revealing about point and shoot accuracy...

For the very low light, all those lights were off and all we had was the light coming in from behind us in the other room outside the range. It was pretty dark doing that. The remarkable bit learned from that portion was that our groups were pretty close to those of the low light, and many were better than with full lighting!

I wasn't using night sights back then.

If anyone manages to get a range to themselves, you might see if they're willing to let you do this stuff.
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Old January 21, 2010, 02:56 AM   #5
Hook686
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What are you calling 'Point shooting'. Ten yards seems a little far away for Point Shooting.
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Old January 21, 2010, 07:42 AM   #6
troy_mclure
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as in looking down the gun, not using the sights.

my fire from the hip groups were still the same size, realy big at 10yd.
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Old January 22, 2010, 10:05 PM   #7
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
point shooting better for dark?
Troy,

Yes but no.

Instead do this. When practicing sighted fire memorize your grip and postion. Then at night do the exact same thing as if you could see the sights and fire. You will find at the closer ranges it works quite well.

Just snap it up just as if you were using the sights.
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Old January 23, 2010, 07:38 AM   #8
Dylan Alexander
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Deaf Smith, is that not the same as point shooting?
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Old January 23, 2010, 08:28 AM   #9
N.H. Yankee
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I am surprised the P32 did so well, especially against night sights.
This is where having a gun that points naturally is vital, when point shooting in poor light under stress. Grip angle is often the problem with low hits, also having ammunition with a low flash powder can be very beneficial. Point shooting or instinctive shooting should be practiced, but limited to the last resort. Wild shots can have deadly consequences.

My only concern is if you have to shoot in low light and your target is hit, one better hope they can prove a threat level justifying deadly force. A anti prosecutor will try to say you were shooting recklessly and how could you be sure of the threat. This is not to say one shouldn't practice low light shooting, I'd much rather deal with the aftermath and protect my family and self.
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Old January 23, 2010, 11:24 PM   #10
Deaf Smith
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Deaf Smith, is that not the same as point shooting?
Dylan,

Yes but no!

Long time ago a guy named Jeff Cooper decided to use the SWCPL (South West Combat Pistol League) as a lab to see what shooting methods worked best.

He came up with this thing called the 'Modern Technique’. Well part of this MT was the 'presentation', a fancy word for drawing. He ended up with the Weaver Stance, 'flash sight picture', surprise break, big bore simi-auto, and other refinements.

Now we can argue about stances or ways of seeing the sights or 9mm .vs .45, but the concept that really stuck me was this:

He wrote that in darkness if you could not see the sights you brought the weapon up just as if you could see them! You trained to present the weapon on target so well with the sights you really didn't need them at the closer ranges!

Now with point shooting you start out by ignoring the sights and focusing on the target. That is what point shooting is all about. At the most you use your peripheral vision to see the weapon as a silhouette below the eye level.

Coopers idea was to use the sights, and 'stance', to build up ones ingrained habits till the 'stance' indexed right were you wanted the bullet to go, and thus the sights were used just to verify the alignment and not adjust the sight picture in any way. That is what the 'flash sight picture' does. No adjustment, but verifying you are on target.

If there was daylight and you could see the sights you then used them if at all possible AND YOU TRAINED THAT WAY! If for some reason you could not see the sights then the ingrained habits of drawing and firing with flash sight picture would give you the hits.

And that is really the big difference. Point shooting trains to not see the sights at all, the other to see the sights only briefly, and not adjusting them, and relying on the presentation to index on the target.
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Old January 24, 2010, 01:41 AM   #11
troy_mclure
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Quote:
Instead do this. When practicing sighted fire memorize your grip and postion. Then at night do the exact same thing as if you could see the sights and fire. You will find at the closer ranges it works quite well.

Just snap it up just as if you were using the sights.
but this takes MUCH more shooting to build up the muscle memory and reflex, that = more time + more ammo, of which i dont have alot of either currently.

point shooting takes a bunch of ammo figuring where the gun "points", but only a box or so a month to keep in "shape".
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Old January 24, 2010, 10:07 AM   #12
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
but this takes MUCH more shooting to build up the muscle memory and reflex, that = more time + more ammo, of which i dont have alot of either currently.
Not really Troy.

For you see you should be practicing sighted fire for when the ranges are longer or the target area is smaller (as in they are wearing a bullet proof vest, or behind cover, or using a hostage, etc...)

Doing that you get the advantages of point shooting (low light, can't see sights) and the advantage of sighted fire shooting in one practice session by just practicing one method and ingraining the technique.

In reality you need two forms of shooting. One, a form of retention/hip shooting for 0 to about 3 yards, and then a form of sighted fire to cover, and overlap, from 2 yards out.

And that is really what the Modern Technique was about. Now as for what ‘stance’ or exact type of sighted fire, or big bore .vs. small bore, etc… I don’t really care about. I normally don’t even use the Weaver stance but a form of isosceles. And I use a 9mm and not .45. And the speed rock is replaced with a form of retention shooting. But I do memorize my hold on the weapon and relation between that and the sights. As a result, at close range I can just close my eyes and hit well.

But it's not from the direction of practicing point shooting. It's from practicing sighted fire.

And this is why master class shots shoot so easily and well. They didn't start by learning point shooting. They learned sighted fire and realized they always indexed on the target and had their sights already in alignment before even looking at them.
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