ATF Special on Gunbroker....

Skans · January 19, 2010, 03:31 PM

I was browsing around on Gunbroker and came across a complete kit to build a full auto open bolt Mac 10...all parts, receiver - everything including the drill bits.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=154083699

Now, I know that this thing isn't YET a functioning gun, but if this doesn't cross the "legal" line, it certainly is pretty bold! Looks like there are two bidders also. Not even a disclaimer like "All NFA laws apply"

Just wondering if you guys think this sort of thing is legally over the line, a BATFE trap, or just barely legal? FWIW - I am not even considering it. I reference this auction strictly for discussion and have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

p99guy · January 19, 2010, 04:11 PM

Best I can figure, they have not crossed the line...under the law, that isnt a receiver, and would take more effort to complete into a working receiver than something one could do at the kitchen table (skillful welding, and metal work)

So its just a complete spare parts kit.....every part of which can be purchased at several of the online MAC parts dealers....some want proof of a tax stamp before they will send you the F/A trigger parts(full auto sear, f/a trigger, F/a selector switch), other dealers do not.

Willie Lowman · January 19, 2010, 07:31 PM

The lower needs he hole for the mag and trigger etc so it may not be a "complete" lower yet. But that does look like a trip to the iron bar hotel to me.

I guess it is legal for them to sell those partially completed Lightning Links... I wouldn't be surprised if the winner of that auction gets served a search warrant as a bonus prize though.

David Hineline · January 19, 2010, 07:45 PM

nothing in that auction is any more regulated than is owning a shotgun and a hacksaw

Skans · January 20, 2010, 09:17 AM

If it was just an unfinished receiver and a bunch of open bolt parts, that might be one thing. But, it was the drill bits and the opened package that said "Mac 10" included in this auction that made me wonder if, all together, this constitutes intent to build a machinegun.

So far, the concensus seems to be that it's legal - maybe even more legal than the so called "pre-81" DIAS's

David Hineline · January 20, 2010, 11:07 AM

Just the fact that you searched the internet and looked at those pictures on that auction site shows you had intent to break the law. You should turn yourself in immediately.

Skans · January 20, 2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Just the fact that you searched the internet and looked at those pictures on that auction site shows you had intent to break the law. You should turn yourself in immediately.

You're right. I'm guilty. Come and get me.

**Brian Pfleuger** · January 20, 2010, 02:15 PM

I recall a thread regarding those kits from a few months back.

IIRC, the kit is entirely legal but at some point in the assembly, or more correctly BEFORE some point in the assembly, one must receive the appropriate tax stamp from ATF.

Skans · January 20, 2010, 05:22 PM

Quote:

but at some point in the assembly, or more correctly BEFORE some point in the assembly, one must receive the appropriate tax stamp from ATF.

That's just the thing - this kit can NEVER be assembled, period. BOTH the manufacture of open-bolt semi-auto Mac-10's and full-auto Mac-10's are prohibited. So, I guess (if it's legal) you can box it up, put it on the shelf and wait until there is no more BATFE to assemble.

PTK · January 20, 2010, 05:42 PM

Or, an 02/07FFL (manufacturer of NFA items) buys the kit and builds it for testing. Can't buy one without a demo letter, but building it yourself cuts out that step.

**Brian Pfleuger** · January 20, 2010, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skans

That's just the thing - this kit can NEVER be assembled, period. BOTH the manufacture of open-bolt semi-auto Mac-10's and full-auto Mac-10's are prohibited. So, I guess (if it's legal) you can box it up, put it on the shelf and wait until there is no more BATFE to assemble.

Ah. Yes, I do remember something about that too, now that you mention it. The open bolt Mac-10s were banned because they were "readily convertible", right? The kit (building it anyway) would be illegal because it's no longer legal to actual "manufacture" any full-auto?

Suwannee Tim · January 20, 2010, 09:33 PM

Reminds me of the guy who got arrested for possession of burglary tools. The judge asked what he had to say for himself. He told the judge that they might as well prosecute him for rape. The judge asked if he had raped anyone. He said "No sir but I got the tools."

January 19, 2010, 03:31 PM	#1
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 6,253	ATF Special on Gunbroker.... I was browsing around on Gunbroker and came across a complete kit to build a full auto open bolt Mac 10...all parts, receiver - everything including the drill bits. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=154083699 Now, I know that this thing isn't YET a functioning gun, but if this doesn't cross the "legal" line, it certainly is pretty bold! Looks like there are two bidders also. Not even a disclaimer like "All NFA laws apply" Just wondering if you guys think this sort of thing is legally over the line, a BATFE trap, or just barely legal? FWIW - I am not even considering it. I reference this auction strictly for discussion and have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

January 19, 2010, 04:11 PM	#2
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	Best I can figure, they have not crossed the line...under the law, that isnt a receiver, and would take more effort to complete into a working receiver than something one could do at the kitchen table (skillful welding, and metal work) So its just a complete spare parts kit.....every part of which can be purchased at several of the online MAC parts dealers....some want proof of a tax stamp before they will send you the F/A trigger parts(full auto sear, f/a trigger, F/a selector switch), other dealers do not. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes" Last edited by p99guy; January 19, 2010 at 06:36 PM.

January 20, 2010, 02:15 PM	#8
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,489	I recall a thread regarding those kits from a few months back. IIRC, the kit is entirely legal but at some point in the assembly, or more correctly BEFORE some point in the assembly, one must receive the appropriate tax stamp from ATF. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

January 19, 2010, 07:31 PM	#3
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 1,932	The lower needs he hole for the mag and trigger etc so it may not be a "complete" lower yet. But that does look like a trip to the iron bar hotel to me. I guess it is legal for them to sell those partially completed Lightning Links... I wouldn't be surprised if the winner of that auction gets served a search warrant as a bonus prize though.

January 19, 2010, 07:45 PM	#4
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 700	nothing in that auction is any more regulated than is owning a shotgun and a hacksaw

January 20, 2010, 09:17 AM	#5
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 6,253	If it was just an unfinished receiver and a bunch of open bolt parts, that might be one thing. But, it was the drill bits and the opened package that said "Mac 10" included in this auction that made me wonder if, all together, this constitutes intent to build a machinegun. So far, the concensus seems to be that it's legal - maybe even more legal than the so called "pre-81" DIAS's

January 20, 2010, 11:07 AM	#6
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 700	Just the fact that you searched the internet and looked at those pictures on that auction site shows you had intent to break the law. You should turn yourself in immediately.

January 20, 2010, 05:42 PM	#10
PTK Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 441	Or, an 02/07FFL (manufacturer of NFA items) buys the kit and builds it for testing. Can't buy one without a demo letter, but building it yourself cuts out that step.

January 20, 2010, 09:33 PM	#12
Suwannee Tim Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2009 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 319	Reminds me of the guy who got arrested for possession of burglary tools. The judge asked what he had to say for himself. He told the judge that they might as well prosecute him for rape. The judge asked if he had raped anyone. He said "No sir but I got the tools."