The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

View Poll Results: Hunch it may be stole. Buy/trade for a gun if it were a screaming good deal?
Report to police based on your 'hunch' 1 1.82%
Offer to run the serial number and/or complete bill of sale to see reaction of seller 21 38.18%
Buy or trade for the gun, no questions asked 4 7.27%
Run, don't walk, away from the deal 31 56.36%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 13, 2010, 12:17 PM   #26
paull
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 1999
Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston
Posts: 157
Quote:
Nope -- there's "legal" and there's "good business practice." This really has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment.
Sure it does...

Does "good business practice" include background checks on all firearm transactions via FFL's?
How about limiting ammo purchases?
Is Illinois' FOID a "good business practice"?
If not, why not? Seems that all of those things would have the benefit of reducing potential risk.

I'm really not trying to bust your balls, just can't quite get a grip on the logic of it all.

The old "liberty v. security" thing comes to mind.
p
paull is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 12:33 PM   #27
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
...Does "good business practice" include background checks on all firearm transactions via FFL's?
How about limiting ammo purchases?
Is Illinois' FOID a "good business practice"?...
Nope. But good business practice, when buying a gun in a private transaction, includes both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing contact information to each other, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.

I might not go through that sort of rigmarole buying a card table at a garage sale. But I'd certainly be that thorough buying anything of meaningful value or something that is a popular item among thieves -- like a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 12:50 PM   #28
paull
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 1999
Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston
Posts: 157
Quote:
Nope. But good business practice, when buying a gun in a private transaction, includes both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing contact information to each other, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Quote:
I might not go through that sort of rigmarole buying a card table at a garage sale. But I'd certainly be that thorough buying anything of meaningful value or something that is a popular item among thieves -- like a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun.
Really..?
If I put an add in the local paper, or website, for
Quote:
a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun
, you would require
Quote:
both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing contact information to each other, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.
?

I've enjoyed our conversation.
paull is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 12:53 PM   #29
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
Really..?
If I put an add in the local paper, or website, for....

I would require ID and a receipt, yes. If I'm spending more than $50, maybe $75, then yes, I want some assurances.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 01:46 PM   #30
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
Really..?
If I put an add in the local paper, or website, for....
I would require ID and a receipt, yes. If I'm spending more than $50, maybe $75, then yes, I want some assurances.
Indeed.

And without a receipt, if the jewelry, art, TV, etc., were to be stolen from you, you'd have a hard time collecting from your insurance company...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
I'd like to see it become common (again) for people to trade their wares without excessive restrictions.
It's a nice, romantic idea to "return" to some mythical Good Old Days in which we all trusted each other implicitly, our word was our bond, and so forth -- but ya know what? Ever since writing was first invented, and involved a stylus and a clay tablet, sensible people have asked for receipts. Just ask any archaeologist...
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 01:57 PM   #31
paull
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 1999
Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston
Posts: 157
Quote:
And without a receipt, if the jewelry, art, TV, etc., were to be stolen from you, you'd have a hard time collecting from your insurance company...
Baloney.

Pizza...
Quote:
I would require ID and a receipt, yes.
So why not support legislation regarding this..?
paull is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 02:22 PM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
So why not support legislation regarding this..?
Because it's a personal choice. I don't care if you do it or not. It's your life, your time, your chances, your money.

I never said, or meant to imply, that anyone besides me should do it.

Do I think that it's logical? Wise? Due diligence? Yep.

Do I care if you do it? Nope.

I look both ways when I cross the street too... but it doesn't matter to me if you do or not. As a matter of fact, when I'm driving I assume that any given pedestrian WON'T look. Doesn't change the fact that I will look.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 03:29 PM   #33
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
And without a receipt, if the jewelry, art, TV, etc., were to be stolen from you, you'd have a hard time collecting from your insurance company...
Baloney.
You think?

Sure, if you have a comprehensive, up-to-date inventory including photos or videos, along with records of serial numbers, and professional appraisals of big-ticket items like jewelry and art -- and if your guns, jewelry, or whatever, are covered by separate riders, you'll probably have given your insurance agent copies of all that before the fact. But failing that, if you want the claim settled promptly, for the full value of your property, having receipts which include the model and serial numbers is your best protection.

The insurance company isn't just gonna take your word for it as to what was stolen...
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 03:33 PM   #34
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,738
At this point, over 1/2 voted they would run away from a screaming good deal on a firearm. But what if that was the only indication that it might be stolen?

What if the same seller was selling the same item at a price more in line with the actual value. Would the buyer, without the benefit of the warning of a low asking price, buy the same item without worry? Stated differently, is the selling price that big of a deal?

In FTF transactions I ask for ID and the usual questions to ascertain information about the seller and the item. Sometimes I get a bill of sale and sometimes I don't. It used to be more important to me than it is now.

However, when I go to a yard sale and see a valuable X item marked really low, I don't question it's origination. If I want it I buy it. Some of these items could theoretically have been stolen, or heck even sold by a family member that isn't the true owner.

Bottom line is that I don't think we should fall prey to treating guns with some mystical properties like we have been brainwashed to do. Guns are purely objects. Until recently they didn't have serial numbers and background checks were not needed. You could walk into a hardware store and buy 'em up by the handful with no questions asked. I try to resist the urge to treat them differently when buying and selling, but sometimes I fall back into the mindset of a bill of sale, and sometimes I don't.

I'm also a fan of no-paper trails if possible.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 04:53 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
However, when I go to a yard sale and see a valuable X item marked really low, I don't question it's origination. If I want it I buy it. Some of these items could theoretically have been stolen, or heck even sold by a family member that isn't the true owner.
I'm not sure why the whole yard/garage sale thing keeps popping up. The fact that an item is at a very public and at least mildly advertised event, not to mention at a persons house, pretty much takes care of an awful lot of questions in my mind. It really has no relevance to the OP, at least for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
What if the same seller was selling the same item at a price more in line with the actual value. Would the buyer, without the benefit of the warning of a low asking price, buy the same item without worry? Stated differently, is the selling price that big of a deal?
For me, it has no bearing on price, except that I'm willing to take the chance on small ticket items.

If I'm buying a gun then I'm getting ID and a receipt. Period, end of story. If you refuse or seem suspect in any way, I'm gone. Price has no bearing in a firearms purchase, high or low dollar.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 05:16 PM   #36
paull
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 1999
Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston
Posts: 157
Quote:
The fact that an item is at a very public and at least mildly advertised event, not to mention at a persons house, pretty much takes care of an awful lot of questions in my mind.
Quote:
If I'm buying a gun then I'm getting ID and a receipt. Period, end of story. If you refuse or seem suspect in any way, I'm gone. Price has no bearing in a firearms purchase, high or low dollar.
Not sure how you rectify these two statements, PK...

It is very apparent that we will not conduct any FTF firearm transactions between ourselves.

By the way, I'm ALWAYS willing to have the buyer swing by the house if they wish.
It just seems to work out that we end up meeting somewhere in town.
I have had folks come by my office to see or show a gun.

Always a pleasure picking minds here.
p

Last edited by paull; January 13, 2010 at 05:18 PM. Reason: speeling
paull is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 05:24 PM   #37
paull
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 1999
Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston
Posts: 157
Vanya...
Quote:
Sure, if you have a comprehensive, up-to-date inventory including photos or videos, along with records of serial numbers, and professional appraisals of big-ticket items like jewelry and art -- and if your guns, jewelry, or whatever, are covered by separate riders, you'll probably have given your insurance agent copies of all that before the fact. But failing that, if you want the claim settled promptly, for the full value of your property, having receipts which include the model and serial numbers is your best protection.

The insurance company isn't just gonna take your word for it as to what was stolen...
Exactly!
I do not believe that my insurance company is going to believe my hand-written receipt any more than my word.

When I was 20 y/o, I had little of value and cared little if it was covered.
I'm pushing 50 now and have aquired many things. I also care for my things better than I did as a kid, and make sure that I have adequate coverage.
p
paull is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 05:37 PM   #38
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
Not sure how you rectify these two statements, PK...

It is very apparent that we will not conduct any FTF firearm transactions between ourselves.

I've never bought a gun at a garage sale, that how.

Actually, I've never bought a gun from anyone except a dealer. If I did, it would include ID and a receipt.

I will confess that, under the right circumstances, I might buy a gun at a garage sale and not insist on a receipt or ID. You have to realize where I live though. This is "the boonies". Any garage sale is likely to be a little old couple who have lived in that house for 50 years and spend their summers sitting in the front yard doing a nearly endless sale day after day after day... they're not hard to find if you ever need them again.
In that case, maybe I might buy a shotgun or an old rifle from the old guy. He's not likely to be the one offering the smoking deal on a brand new hand gun that he's just GOT to get rid of to pay bills.

However, the MUCH more typical scenario just happened to me this last summer..... a rather beat up minivan with no exhaust comes into my parking lot. A rather beat up old lady, probably with too much exhaust, wants to sell me a gun because "we really need the money". She pulls out this $175 "Wal*Mart Special" pump 12ga in a $19.95 plastic case and tells me that it's a $500 gun and a $150 case and it's only been shot once.... and she really doesn't want to but she'll let it go for $300 because they need to pay the car insurance. Riiiiiiight. I say "No thanks.", suddenly, it's only $250, then $200, still I say no. $175? No.

If that was a $4000 O/U shotgun and she wanted $200 for it I wouldn't have touched it without ID and a receipt, not to mention a check on the serial from my sheriff's deputy buddy. No way, no how.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; January 13, 2010 at 07:41 PM. Reason: grammar
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 06:35 PM   #39
orangello
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 566
It seems that i hold the minority opinion on this issue.

^^^ Would you guys look at a garage sale much differently than a gun show? It's a publicly announced sale, with deputies at the door, but i am not familiar with any sort of validation process that sellers are required to undergo to participate.

I've bought one firearm without going through an FFL; it was a reasonably priced rifle at a gun show, from an individual's collection. Dude had a table full & seemed to be accepted as a "regular" by the nearby sellers. Dude also copied my ID for his file & asked if i was prohibited from buying firearms, IIRC. I'm comfortable with that situation. I bought some ammo & magazines as well; should i have gotten a bill of sale on the mags as "gun parts"?

Honestly, if it turned out that rifle were stolen, i would try to get it returned to the rightful owner, and would provide all the information i have on the person who sold it to me (date from visa receipt for same day ammo purchase, physical description, and booth location).
orangello is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 09:53 PM   #40
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
...If I put an add in the local paper, or website...
What would that have to do with anything? I've no doubt that stolen or counterfeit (in the case of, for example, an expensive watch or painting) have been sold through newspaper or Internet advertisements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
...I don't think we should fall prey to treating guns with some mystical properties like we have been brainwashed to do. Guns are purely objects...
But when buying from an individual, a stranger, different types of objects may well warrant different types of due diligence. Guns, for example, are popular targets for thieves, are sometimes used in crimes and, after being used for criminal purposes, are sometimes sold as a means of disposing of them. Jewelry may be phony, and collectibles (including collectible guns) are sometimes faked. Expensive watches may be counterfeit or stolen. These are all simply objects, but the uncertainties are different.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 10:47 PM   #41
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,738
It wouldn't be impossible for many people, including posters here who are adament that the go through all the checks, to inadvertently have a stolen gun in their collection EVEN IF THEY GO THROUGH A DEALER OR GET SOMEONES NAME/ID, ETC.. How is this possible? Well I personally had a revolver stolen from me years ago. That was back before I recorded serial numbers religiously. Guess what. I reported a revolver stolen. Could be in your collection of used revolvers!

So a point I'm trying to make is that you really CAN'T always know for sure. And the same is true with the sale of other items on craigslist, yard sales, ebay, etc.

So - why are guns any different? Is it because you can kill someone with a gun? I've seen expensive baseball bats (aluminum ones) stolen from sporting goods stores and sold on the side. They make fine weapons. No serial numbers there.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old January 13, 2010, 11:17 PM   #42
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
It wouldn't be impossible for many people, including posters here who are adament that the go through all the checks, to inadvertently have a stolen gun in their collection ...you really CAN'T always know for sure. And the same is true with the sale of other items on craigslist, yard sales, ebay, etc...
That's true. One can't entirely eliminate risk. BUT one can minimize risk, and, perhaps, preserve some degree of recourse.

Appropriate due diligence isn't perfect, but it is prudent.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old January 14, 2010, 08:26 AM   #43
paull
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 1999
Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston
Posts: 157
Quote:
Appropriate due diligence isn't perfect, but it is prudent.
It would be silly for me to keep arguing the point, but...

Let's say you saw a gun advertised on this site.
By a member of long and good standing.
It is a model you have coveted for some time and the price is reasonable.
He/she lives near your town.
You have numerous conversations via PM, email, and telephone; regarding the options for payment and delivery.
It is decided that you will meet at an his/her office.
You are greeted by a person that identifies themselves, verbally, as the person you have been conversing with.
You sit in their office discussing gun stuff and chit-chatting.
You notice the diplomas and certificates on the walls match, by name apparently, the person to whom you are speaking.
The person's secretary or nurse buzzes in to say that there is a call waiting or a patient that needs attention.
You are asked to wait in the lobby/waiting room for a few minutes, while business is conducted.
After a short wait, you are invited back into the office and complete the transaction.
The seller does not offer a receipt, and when asked, states, smiling, that "I'm one of those whacko militia guys that doesn't do the paper-trail thing".
You leave w/o the gun?

p
paull is offline  
Old January 14, 2010, 08:39 AM   #44
earlthegoat2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Lowcountry
Posts: 373
Id run from the sale for purely selfish reasons. I dont want my gun being impounded somewhere down the line.

The secondary reason is I dont want to be arrested.
__________________
I say take off the warning labels and let them sort themselves out.
earlthegoat2 is offline  
Old January 14, 2010, 10:28 AM   #45
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
It would be silly for me to keep arguing the point,...
Yes, it is. Have a nice life.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old January 14, 2010, 10:45 AM   #46
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
It would be silly for me to keep arguing the point, but...
It's the same sort of argument wherein someone can come up with a scenario, no matter how unlikely, to support any point.

Are there one in a million, or even one in a thousand, exceptions? Yes.

The other 999 times out of that thousand, I want a receipt and ID. Considering that I am unlikely to buy more than 10 or 15 guns, tops, in my entire life, and most or all of them from a dealer, it's sort of a mute point in my world.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13072 seconds with 10 queries