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Old December 5, 2009, 05:58 PM   #1
JoInquisitive
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"Apache" hand gun - French

I have a very fun curio known generally in the 'gun biz' as an "Apache" (apparently a French rowdies weapon of choice). It is a folding 'knuckle duster' combined 'mini-scewer' (knife) and a 6-shot revolver (believe it's 6.5 mm). It has hallmaks aplenty and is numbered 400 - it is stamped "NF" NOT "FN" - would anyone know who this manufactuer was - I believe it was made mid to late 1800s, thanks in advance, JI
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Old December 5, 2009, 07:07 PM   #2
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Very rare, worth money. potentially illegal as hell is you dont have the proper paperwork.

I beleive there was more than one manufacture but i cant recall it off hand, i think those revolvers were pin fire which means ammo is eather non existent or extremely expensive.

sorry i couldnt be more helfpul
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Old December 5, 2009, 07:22 PM   #3
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potentially illegal as hell is you dont have the proper paperwork.
Firearms manufactured prior to 1899 are considered antique and not covered by the NFA or GCA. No paperwork required.
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Old December 5, 2009, 08:13 PM   #4
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For reasons I don't pretend to understand, apparently the "Apache" was pronounced as "oo-pasch"
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Old December 6, 2009, 10:50 PM   #5
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I have never understood the term at all in that context. Was it a corruption of some French term or was it intended to mean that the people to whom it referred were like savage "red Indians"?

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Old December 11, 2009, 09:54 AM   #6
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I always thought it was named after the famous "warrior" tribe known for their "fighting" prowness. Also because it gives you different options. Almost kind of like something a real Apache would want from that time; a weapon that worked 3 different ways all rolled up into one. I wish I had one just for a conversation piece.
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Old December 11, 2009, 12:30 PM   #7
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Was it a corruption of some French term or was it intended to mean that the people to whom it referred were like savage "red Indians"?
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I always thought it was named after the famous "warrior" tribe known for their "fighting" prowness.
Apache (pronounced "ah-pash") is a French term for a street brawler, hooligan, or troublemaker. The French named many Indian groups in North America, among them the Apache, which the Spaniards and later Americans mispronounce "ah-patch-ee". Regardless, the term existed many years before the discovery of the Americas, and is still used to describe miscreants (although somewhat archaic).
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Old December 11, 2009, 12:38 PM   #8
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This piece is likely French or Belgian (the two largest manufacturers), but nailing down which specific manufacturer is probably going to take good photos of the markings; a good site for a lot of these manufacturers is www.littlegun.be
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Old December 12, 2009, 12:31 PM   #9
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Thanks, Scorch,

So it was the other way around, with the tribe being named for French bad guys, or maybe just an odd coincidence. The pronunciation of "A-patch-ee" is probably from Americans thinking that the word is Spanish, "A-pah-che" with the Americans changing the "chay" to "chee."

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Old December 13, 2009, 05:47 AM   #10
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It were 2 newspaper writers (turn of the century) that gave the name 'apaches' to violent street criminals in Paris to illustrate how 'savage' they were. The 'apaches' disappeared because of WW1.

In french 'apache' is pronounced 'apash'
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Old December 22, 2009, 10:31 PM   #11
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"Appache" update a couple of pics fyi

The gun has Liege proofmaks & a stamp which at the bottom incorporates the # 5 - then on the gun major parts it has (5) file marks - I assume a continuation signature. I have contacted a person in Warsaw who may have info on the ammo (6mm - very, very short) as I like to use any mech equip I own -it's part of the expierience. Note the hex barrels used in lieu of rifling - my palm pistol also uses six straight lands for rifling however in a cylindrical barrel, Greg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1010528 (Medium).JPG (56.0 KB, 118 views)
File Type: jpg P1010530 (Medium).JPG (35.5 KB, 95 views)
File Type: jpg P1010532 (Medium).JPG (41.9 KB, 94 views)
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Old December 26, 2009, 10:15 PM   #12
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Thanks SDC - "Kanada" - I am originally a canuck and enjoy this hobby here

Thanks for your lead SDC, it was very helpful. Have a very close loggo for Folville Frères of the Liege group of manufacturers - I sent, at Alain's request high re photos - t'will be interesting to see what he has to say. I truly hope we can drop the Appache nomenclture as it is suely a red herring - two of the pics I sent are attached fyi, greg
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File Type: jpg P1010537 (Large).JPG (86.1 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg P1010542 (Large).JPG (29.0 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg P1010552 (Large).JPG (67.1 KB, 57 views)
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Old December 27, 2009, 09:30 AM   #13
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Firearms manufactured prior to 1899 are considered antique and not covered by the NFA or GCA. No paperwork required.
Its a knuckleduster...........covered by federal law, shoot that thing by an off duty cop in the next firing stall wthout the papers and see.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/8608247/detail.html

and those are just belt buckles.

Beautiful revolver by the way!!

Last edited by hickstick_10; December 27, 2009 at 09:35 AM.
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Old December 27, 2009, 03:15 PM   #14
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Even in non-gun cofiguration - it's a serious little piece

Well Hickstick 10 thought I'd take a pic, which actually makes your point - as a non-gun it is still potentially lethal. I imagine an FFA Curio & Relic license works but, I'll have to ask. Thanks for your input
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File Type: jpg Non gun still a formidable weapon.jpg (129.5 KB, 54 views)
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Old December 27, 2009, 05:13 PM   #15
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Brass knuckles are not regulated by federal law.
There may be laws against importation.
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Old December 27, 2009, 11:44 PM   #16
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Your right it only applies to certain states my bad

California, Massachusetts, MICHIGAN, ILLINOIS, Washington and New York State and possibly North Carolina

Very cool picture BTW
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Old December 28, 2009, 12:35 PM   #17
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Thats an ugly little thing.........How much you want for it ?......just send it to me and I'll get rid of it for you.........Really, Thats awsome, I bet it's worth some cash...
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Old December 30, 2009, 10:12 AM   #18
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It is likely a Dolne Bar CERTAINLY not AN "appache'

At SDC's suggestion (thanks again) I went www.littlegun.be who specialize in Belgian Liege weapons but have an amazing amount of research material with photos on most manufacturing countries. As a matter of fact more than I could run through so I enlisted Alain's help - super quick - all he needs are very high quality photos and he's off - three days later I had my answer - to get the results of his search you need to join for the princely sum of only 5 Euros for six months - you do not need to join to brouse their data files only to retrieve your contracted search results. Though close there are physical differences and I am going to pursue - of particular note where the other examples shown are said to be 7mm (whereas mine is 6mm) and they are stamped "Dolne Bar - Brevete" mine is not but in it's stead has an interlocking in French script "FF" - also each component of my gun is maked. Alain dated it 1853-1877, based on the "crowned 'V'" and it was apparently only patented in England in 1875, patent # 534 - so, "appache" no more - I will let you know where the journey leads. Oh, by the way use PayPal - the european - pay equiv is not worthy of a try. Greg
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