The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 1, 2000, 04:41 PM   #1
EricO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 1998
Posts: 124
Over the years I've read of this method in a few articles by Massad Ayoob. I've seen some scene by scene photos where a certain technique was shown in these articles also.
Has anyone taken any courses on using these techniques and if you have, could you elaborate on them please.
I believe the key to the method is trap (secure?), position, and release. The method uses weight and leverage to its best advantage, and does not rely upon sheer strength.
EricO
EricO is offline  
Old October 2, 2000, 10:10 AM   #2
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Eric: I've taken the Lindell method, both at LFI-2 and at http://www.aware.org

No, I won't describe the methods in an open forum. And as with many such things, it would be particularly hard to describe anyways. Bad guys practice disarms in jail and I have no intention of helping them.

If you are in the Boston area and can show me that you are a card-carrying good guy (e.g., have a CCW permit), I'll demonstrate some of the methods to you. You are correct that the methods use leverage, so a small person can retain the gun during an attack from a gorilla, provided they use the appropriate technique and perform it correctly.

I will say that there is a disadvantage to the Lindell system -- mainly that it is prescriptive. You have to learn a number of different techniques and use the correct technique for the given type of attack.

According to Ayoob, a number of police officers have used the Lindell methods successfully in the field. I will say that just taking LFI-2 or a 1 day retention class will not be enough to really learn the techniques. You'll need to get a training partner and train to do them instinctively.

The Hamilton method claims to be simpler, but I haven't been trained in it yet. The Hamilton technique is also destructive, which may be an advantage or disadvantage, depending upon the circumstance. I hope to take the Hamilton this fall.

M1911


[This message has been edited by M1911 (edited October 02, 2000).]
M1911 is offline  
Old October 2, 2000, 12:31 PM   #3
smokeetr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2000
Posts: 1
Howdy. Nice board you guys have here. I hope you don't mind a newbie tossing in his two cents....

When I was a peace officer, I studied the Lindell system of retention. From my personal experience with gun grabbers, it works great, and is easy for a smaller officer to use against a larger big guy. What I didn't like about it was that you had to learn too many techniques. Every different type of grab had its own defense. If you don't practice regularly, you'll forget them. I picked a couple that I could adapt to most types of grabs. The two day course I took wasn't enough to retain all the techniques without practice.

Steve S.
smokeetr is offline  
Old October 2, 2000, 12:41 PM   #4
ctdonath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 1999
Posts: 1,902
Mas certified me to teach the Lindell system. The above comments are about right: it is effective in using the trap/position/release/distance process, is arguably prescriptive, can't be described well textually, should be demonstrated in person, and is something one should only show to verified good guys (as bad guys are actively trying to figure this stuff out and train other criminals). I'll add that while it may be somewhat prescriptive as taught, like martial arts katas, the prescriptions can lead one to a greater understanding of the subject and become able to apply the principles instinctively instead of as a recipie.

If you haven't taken LFI-2, do so.
ctdonath is offline  
Old October 2, 2000, 08:32 PM   #5
EricO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 1998
Posts: 124
m1911,smokeetr,ctdonath: Thank you for the information that you've given. m1911 - Yes, I wasn't thinking when I asked for more specifics on the method, excuse me please. Thanks for the offer, but I'm too far away. In CA, in fact, without hope of receiving a CCW in the county I live in. By the way, though, there are good guys out there that...may have a need, and don't have a CCW.
EricO is offline  
Old October 3, 2000, 08:59 AM   #6
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EricO:
By the way, though, there are good guys out there that...may have a need, and don't have a CCW. [/quote]

Eric: I'm not certified to teach Lindell, unlike ctdonath. I can demonstrate the techniques but I won't try to teach them.

Nevertheless, I will only demonstrate the techniques to someone who can demonstrate to me that they are a good guy. They can do that either by showing me a CCW, or a letter from their local chief of police, or a clean background check. But without something like that, I just won't take the chance.

M1911
M1911 is offline  
Old October 3, 2000, 05:40 PM   #7
EricO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 1998
Posts: 124
m1911, I suppose I don't blaim you. Thanks for the offer, but alas, I'm on the wrong (for alot of things) coast. I'll certainly keep my eyes open for any training involving the Lindell method over here. EricO
EricO is offline  
Old October 4, 2000, 12:45 AM   #8
Gunslinger
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
Are we referring to Jim Lindell formerly of Kansas City?

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
Gunslinger is offline  
Old October 4, 2000, 07:18 PM   #9
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Yup. That's him.

M1911
M1911 is offline  
Old October 6, 2000, 10:50 AM   #10
Gunslinger
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
Jim Lindell was my martial arts/physical training instructor in the Regional Training Academy for KCPD. He gave me the honor being the instructor for the remedial students needing extra training time when he and his first assistant were unable to spare the time. He is/was impressive to say the least.
I would like to share some stories of what he used to do for entertainment during his off time but some would not find it as amusing as I did.

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
Gunslinger is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 09:00 AM   #11
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
Slinger: I would like to hear those stories

M1911 & ctdonath: Hey wouldn't it be a good idea to keep guns away from all but the card carrying good guys also? Who gets to decide what a good guy is after all?

Weapon retention normally consist of simplified techniques derived from very old martial arts. No real secrets involved. If you want a simple and cheap alternative go to local library or book store and find books that cover unarmed self defense. Many of the techniques they show for releasing from grabs and hold [like when someone grabs your hair or shirt] illustrate the basic principals used for weapon rentention. The only thing added for weapon rentention is muzzle control/awareness.

Weapon retention techniques mainly use wrist locks or finger peels of some type. Though some do advise strikes. Lindell's techniques are designed for uniformed LEO's though and probably isn't the best system to study for concealed carry. YMMV

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited October 07, 2000).]
Glamdring is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 09:24 AM   #12
ctdonath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 1999
Posts: 1,902
I would like to share some stories of what he used to do for entertainment during his off time but some would not find it as amusing as I did.

But others would!
ctdonath is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 09:33 AM   #13
ctdonath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 1999
Posts: 1,902
Hey wouldn't it be a good idea to keep guns away from all but the card carrying good guys also?

Each person has the right to buy a gun.
I have the right to not sell him one.
Ditto for combat training.

Who gets to decide what a good guy is after all?

When I'm providing the weapons or training, the answer is ME.
ctdonath is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 09:58 AM   #14
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Glamdring: I don't think I'm asking for much here. I'm asking for someone to prove to me that they're not a criminal. A CCW proves that. If they live in a jurisdiction where they can't get one, they can get a copy of their criminal record from a state agency or a local police department. Or a letter from the chief of police.

Something like 20% of police officers killed are killed with their own guns. Criminals practice disarms in prison. I am not going to help them by showing a criminal either retention or disarm techniques.

All I'm asking is that they prove to me that they are not a convicted criminal.

Jared
M1911 is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 11:42 AM   #15
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
So it is okay to talk about shooting skills on an open forum but not weapon rention in your opinion? That just seems strange to me.

And I don't know how one could literally prove they were not a criminal? You could do a background check on someone but to be even halfway serious would require a fair bit of money and time. You would need to KNOW vs taking their word for it on were they had lived and what their name(s) had been.

"Something like 20% of police officers killed are killed with their own guns. Criminals practice disarms in prison. I am not going to help them by showing a criminal either retention or disarm techniques." How much of that is due to skill of the officers opponent and how much to lack of skill on the officers part? Or the fact that the LEO worked five 12 hour shifts in a row?
Glamdring is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 11:51 AM   #16
Gunslinger
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
Weapon retention techniques mainly use wrist locks or finger peels of some type. Though some do advise strikes. Lindell's techniques are designed for uniformed LEO's though and probably isn't the best system to study for concealed carry.

Glamdring is correct in that sharing Mr. Lindells techniques would do little to help a non-uniformed person in weapons retention.

Jared, to is correct in that most officers were killed with their own weapon at one time. Hence the reason for emphasis on weapons retention for officers.

I gained Mr. Lindells respect.....and often times his wrath....for not simply excepting some of his training methods. Many of the trainee's had never been in an actual fight in their lives. Training...out of necessity often illustrated exaggerated round house strikes to teach various blocking techniques. It was my contention (as a relatively successful boxer) that if all training was restricted to these practices that the student would loose to someone who knew how to throw a jab on the street. The student, now turned police officer, would get his butt kicked the first time he encountered someone that did not simply throw wide looping blows. I understood the need for such training early in the process but wished to see more advanced training before they (the trainee's) were released for street duty. Mr. Lindell often used me as his partner to demonstrate a new technique to the class. At these times I would not simply take a fall leaving the impression that it would be that easy on the street. An example would be an arm bar take down in which your opponent is expected to simply go down face first allowing the student the opportunity to trap an arm and place them in cuffs. Instead, in this example, I would roll, landing on my back, allowing me the option to strike from my back once on the ground. This often lead to some "enthusiastic" sparing between he and I. Let there be no mistake, in spite of having 40 pounds on him there never was a doubt in my mind that he could whip me like a redheaded stepchild any time he wished. For anyone whom has never had the pleasure of meeting the man, Mr. Lindell was extremely thin. However, he was one of those people who was deceptively strong for his slim stature, knew the meaning of leverage and could throw strikes like a snake. It was this underlying controversy, the fact that he to knew the importance of real world training and the fact that it was an easy way to keep me out of trouble that lead him to assigning me the task of assistant instructor. My roll, which was limited, was to train students that needed more time in training and those that lacked the instinct to fight when and how needed in a real encounter. I served in this roll for my own academy class and the two following it.

Mr. Lindell was a civilian employee and was paid by the Regional Training Academy. The academy there is, due to the smaller departments in the Kansas City metropolitan area desiring superior LE training but lacking funds for their own, is a joint academy for several agencies including KCPD, my old department.
I won't comment on Mr. Lindell's off time activities other than to say that he often times enjoyed "creating" real world encounters to hone his own skills.

I haven't talked with him in 15 years and the last I knew he was suffering from cancer. Hence my reference to him in the past tense. Law enforcment trainee's and the martial arts community were blessed to have him as a an instructor. He is missed.

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
Gunslinger is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 08:06 PM   #17
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glamdring:

And I don't know how one could literally prove they were not a criminal? You could do a background check on someone but to be even halfway serious would require a fair bit of money and time. You would need to KNOW vs taking their word for it on were they had lived and what their name(s) had been.

How much of that is due to skill of the officers opponent and how much to lack of skill on the officers part? Or the fact that the LEO worked five 12 hour shifts in a row?
[/quote]

Glamdring:

Actually, the background check takes no money at all. All the person has to do is go to the local police station or send a request in writing to a state agency (here in MA it is the Criminal Systems History Board), and they get it for free. Then they show it to me. Yes, it isn't perfect. But it will catch a lot. And if they already have a CCW, then the background check is not needed, since if they had a felony conviction they wouldn't have the CCW.

Unfortunately, while some police agencies have excellent training for handgun retention, many do not.

Regarding firearms training, most of the major firearms training schools (LFI, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc.) have a similar requirement to attend their classes: a CCW, letter from a police chief, etc.

Why is it that you think this is such a problem, Glamdring?

M1911

[This message has been edited by M1911 (edited October 07, 2000).]
M1911 is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 08:08 PM   #18
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunslinger:
Weapon retention techniques mainly use wrist locks or finger peels of some type. Though some do advise strikes. Lindell's techniques are designed for uniformed LEO's though and probably isn't the best system to study for concealed carry.
[/quote]

I'm curious why you say that. While attacks to the holster are perhaps less likely for someone carrying concealed, Lindell also has methods for defending attacks against a drawn gun. Which retention techniques do you favor for someone carrying concealed? Or do you feel that someone carrying concealed doesn't require retention techniques?

M1911


[This message has been edited by M1911 (edited October 07, 2000).]
M1911 is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 09:57 PM   #19
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
With background checks unless you use fingerprints they are of no value at all since all that is required to evade them is simply to use a different name. Also even today the data is not truly interconnected. You have local, state, & federal at the very least. My state does not issue CCW except to a very few special people [read: politics]. But I have passed a few different types of security checks for working in security, with vulnerable adults, & for working with children. But I also studied forensics in college and have worked a little with a county attorney since college...which is where I developed my lack of faith in security checks. Unless one actually conducts an investigation of a person.

My problem with requiring security checks to gain access to information/knowledge is the same that I have with background checks being required to own weapons. It does nothing to even slow down "bad guys" but adds expense & discrimination to the "good guys" efforts to aquire information or weapons.

I understand and agree with being selective in who one spends time and effort teaching. What bothers me is the attitude that only certain people are entitled to what is essentially self defense skills and/or knowledge.

IMO having access to information is even more important than RKBA.

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited October 07, 2000).]
Glamdring is offline  
Old October 7, 2000, 10:25 PM   #20
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M1911:
I'm curious why you say that. While attacks to the holster are perhaps less likely for someone carrying concealed, Lindell also has methods for defending attacks against a drawn gun. Which retention techniques do you favor for someone carrying concealed? Or do you feel that someone carrying concealed doesn't require retention techniques?
M1911
[This message has been edited by M1911 (edited October 07, 2000).]
[/quote]

Ralph Mroz's view is probably the closest to mine when it comes to weapon rentention. Though I also like Suarez's techniques

I think simple hand to hand skills & situational awareness are more important than weapon retention for most people that have a CCW.

BTW it is easy to retain a gun in a pocket holster even if you haven't studied weapon rentention. An ankle holster is also fairly secure in that sense. Something to remember that none of the name people/schools have ever mention as far as I know.

Pocket and crossdraw holsters also allow one to get a grip on gun without being real obvious.
Glamdring is offline  
Old October 8, 2000, 09:48 AM   #21
Gunslinger
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
1911, the quote you attributed to me was actually Glamdrings.
He has already responded to it but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.
Gunslinger is offline  
Old October 8, 2000, 12:01 PM   #22
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Glamdring:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm going to do what little I can to prevent criminals from obtaining the knowledge of disarms and handgun retention. Yes, my system isn't perfect. But, for the most part, it seems to work, and it's cheap.

Jared
M1911 is offline  
Old October 9, 2000, 06:49 PM   #23
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
M1911: I understand your concern. That you might indirectly aid some goblin by improving their combat skills. I think we do simply have a differing philosophy. I am more concerned about failing to aid someone that I could have, by teaching them a technique they might need or sharing information or ideas or watching their back, than I am about accidently aiding a goblin. If I know someone is a goblin I am likly to take action against them if possible, I certainly wouldn't help a goblin.

Glamdring is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11525 seconds with 9 queries