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Old February 18, 2000, 03:36 PM   #1
EWB
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Hello Guys,

New to the board and must say It's a pleasure to be posting here. Have you guys used lots of scenarios in your pistol training on the range? I have recently seen one in the magazine Combat Handguns where you set up 2 targets one at 10 yards and the other off to the right behind it at 25 yards. The second target presenting a hostage scenario. You turn shoot the closest target as fast as you can shoot accurately and slow the pace to make the critical hostage shot behind it. It help's to teach you to take your time-fast! As the article reads. Anyone else have a certain Scenario they like to use on the range? Any shared scenarios would be appreciated, Thanks.
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Old February 18, 2000, 05:08 PM   #2
Mark King
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EWB, You might want to check out the IDPA web page. They have quite a few scenarios based on actual real life situations. You should be able to use at least a few of these on most ranges. www.idpa.com Mark / FL
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Old February 19, 2000, 01:05 PM   #3
EWB
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Thanks for the link Mark. Have you ever been in a IDPA competion? If so what's it like? Thanks again.
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Old February 21, 2000, 10:45 AM   #4
WETSU
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EWB. I've done the hostage thing several times also. Went shooting this weekend with a teammate. This is a new one we did. We stood approx. back to back, I was facing 3 targets, he was facing 2. Mine were about 10 yards, his about 20. We switched off between targets and guns but the only two we used were an HK USP .45, and a .38 snubbie. On the call of the guy facing 3, we shot. Two shots for each target. 100% kill was the only acceptable outcome. With the snubbie at 20 yards, that was tough. But, it worked, we learned some things, and soon we were doing 100%. Bonus to the snubbie shooter for leaving 1 round left-just in case. The point of the drill was to practice using a weapon, NOT familiar to you, and using it well under time constraints against multiple targets-and doing well!
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Old February 23, 2000, 04:42 PM   #5
pluspinc
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Playing at the range is not training. If you want to PLAY, be sure to take it with that attitude. We know from experinece what real shootings are.

1. UNDER 21 feet or less.
2. Low light or darkness

It is THAT simple. Few understand that the closer the target is to you, the higher the chances of missing. That doesn't sound right, but it is well documented. The most difficult shooting you will do is under 10 feet when you can't shoot using extended arms. You have to shoot with the gun close to the body and you lose hand eye coordination.
It takes a lot of practice to MASTER shooting at such close range.
It is hard to almost impossible to find ranges that will let you turn the lights down or off which is a shame if they are concerned about any form of reality.
85% of shootings are in low lighting, so training should reflect that figure. 90% or mroe are at 21 feet or less so we should relfect that figure.
If you want to shoot beyond 21 feet you are probably headed for legal problems in most cases. Most rooms aren't even that long.
The whole idea is simple. Trying to make it complex and loaded with "what if's" is beyond what you will need to know.
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Old February 24, 2000, 04:24 PM   #6
WETSU
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Gotta agree with you there pluspinc. We did our shooting at the range the otheer day simply because we had discussed it on the ride down in the context of a rural, more open area scenario. Man, I shoot so much that we have to mix it up every once and a while to keep it interesting. Something you mentioned was shooting in close-it is hard. Also, not very many people have even tried to shoot from a ground position-on their back, liked they've been knocked down. It's a different perspective.
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Old February 25, 2000, 05:30 AM   #7
pluspinc
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Something you mentioned was shooting in close-it is hard. Also, not very many people have even tried to shoot from a ground position-on their back, liked they've been knocked down. It's a different perspective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the real world you don't find stances. Look at my web page www.plusp.com for a real shooting video showing a cop firing on his back. It isn't a weaver stance.
Also try that short range shooting. It is rather humbling. I did it today and after 40 years I have failed to master it and nobody ever will. It shows a BIG open flaw in our ability to shoot which we will probably face in reality. AND the target isn't moving.
Most shooters find very close up shooting "boring" but it isn't a 100% either. I hate failing at such close range at time and maybe that is why it's boring.
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Old February 25, 2000, 05:09 PM   #8
EWB
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Pluspinc,
In that video was the cop on the ground to start with during the robbery? Or did he walk in to the robbery and get knocked down? It's scary to think all you shooting on the range could be useless in real life. What are your typical shooting sessions like? Do you practice shooting weird angles and off the hip shots alot?
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Old February 26, 2000, 05:00 AM   #9
pluspinc
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I have seen the entire video and the cop tried to intervene in the shooting and seemed to fall as he fired for some unknown reason perhaps the gunman out of camera range at that time was going to shoot etc.
We do not teach stances because they don't apply to real life. Such things are for formal organized target type shooting. Kinda like learning sex.
Most of the things we are shown to do on the range over the years are applicable only to ideal situations which never exist and the assumption is that we will dictate the circumstances and be able to apply a complex system to solve a simple problem.
Today I got an email from a major PD firearms instructor. (dept name upon request by private email). Here is his quote.
" The two cops had fired the course twice and failed both times. I told the sgt to give me 15 mins with them. I showed them the technique and some of the things that you showed me. After 15 min. of instruction both of them passed with no problems. They couldn't believe how simple it was. The method that they had received before made shooting much to complicated. I reduced it down to bare bones. It was amazing how well they did with a minimum amount of instruction."
It is difficult for shooters to believe less is better. We think it takes a very complex effort to shoot in self-defense and then wonder why it doesnt work in reality.
Simple methods are not always fun and entertaining and most shooters want their training to be both and then expect it to work.
Also those in the training business think their efforts won't be marketable unless they can convince potential customers that they hold complex and unique knowledge they can share with the client.
It's like taking a class on how to stay healthy and they tell you to wash your hands a lot and ask for payment.
The system we use is so simple I can hardly put it into words. But the key is to master the simple and KNOWN circumstances of 90+% of the real shootings.

1. 21 feet or less
2. Low light and darkness

Stop and think of those that will tell you the process involves, "evaluated the threat, seek cover, get a stance, do a speed rock, get a flash sight picture, crush grip, remember all the laws, and do a Mozambique drill." What dreamers.


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Old February 26, 2000, 02:56 PM   #10
EWB
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How can you argue when it's all about KISS. Less chance for senior Murphy to rear his head. EWB
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Old February 26, 2000, 05:55 PM   #11
fubsy
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Pluspinc,
Ive read with interest how the bad guys outshoot trained leo's and ive looked at the video on your sight......do you have any video/picture of the non-leo or bad guys out shooting said good guys?....I guess the question is what are they doing that makes them so successful?.(Is it just that they initiate the violence, so your starting out behind the 8-ball?)
I originally shot small bore competition in a minor way, and when i began to look at shooting for self-defense, I was living in ElPaso tx, and Do to my fathers profession I started shooting for a short time in those aroyos with some custom agents, borderpartrol, and probation officers.....they would put the target 3 feet in front of me and the idea was to draw and fire into the target quickly. I remember for the sake of speed, shooting from the hip, and a lot of the shots were low or missed entirely, I had to purposely remember to bring the gun up higher.....Never once did i look at the sights, not until much later.
The dismal showing I had using the "speed rock" caused me to burn up tons of ammo in those arroyo's trying to learn "point shooting", later on I might not actually hit the target (usually a small can or pill bottle or bottle cap), i was often close,,,,,,,,
I started shooting when i was around 14 and thats 30 years ago for me and Im trying to figure out what you think the simple technique is, If i go back over my "evolution" as a shooter certain things stick out,the target techniques, the instinct shooting, the "push" the gun toward the opponent, and the always use the sights, and the enveloping the gun in the picture, and theirs probably somemore I just dont recall........so what are we talking about here?
As long as I recall the leo types in my experience always were aware that the shooting's were mostly up close and that the situation could evolve to contact range.
I have never had the advantage of going to a professional school to learn these self defense shooting techniques, but I have sota of evolved into a form of weaver, which does allow me to get the pistol up to an area that encompasses the pistol in my vision, most of the time I dont have a traditional sight picture with the sights.
I worked into this by trying to find the quickest way to present the pistol, sight the pistol and to keep the pistol in close to aid in retention.
So how wet am I? Should i take a big beach towell next time i go shooting or what?....I do enjoy learning so trot it out and lets take a look at it....tks fubsy.
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Old February 27, 2000, 06:24 AM   #12
pluspinc
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Fubsy, You got it right. You figured it out.
It is easy to miss at arms length. The speed rock crap sure falls flat when you start to think about things.
Also we are adding videos of civilian shootings. We were just reviewing some videos and someone mentioned something that I hadn't noticed. We are now compiling a new statistic of sorts.
We are finding about 25% of all shooters in self-defense will SCREAM. Once we spotted this we started to look and sure enough. A wild animal like primal scream. I thought we resort to our training. Are we taught to scream like that. We are recording them and going to put them on tape in a row to listen to. Blood curdle like screams. Amazing what we harvest from real shootings. You don't read that stuff in gun rags. Who wants to admit they will scream like an animal when facing death?
EWB: You are WRONG about Murphy's law. In self defense you are covered by "O'Toole's Law." O'Toole said, " Murphy was an optimist." :-)
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Old February 27, 2000, 05:28 PM   #13
fubsy
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Well Im not sure if I got it figured out or not, im always looking for an edge. But that is how Ive developed my shooting style, i guess you call it...that scream is sorta like Art's getting ****** in times of stress, sorta like the yell in martial arts maybe......good to know...tks fubsy.
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