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Old November 11, 2008, 12:33 AM   #1
Ricky B
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California and C&R FFLs

I was wondering about how CA treats C&R purchases. I did a search of the posted messages and didn't find any.

1. If a C&R FFL holder purchases a C&R firearm out of state, I believe it must be received in California by a regular FFL and then transferred to the C&R FFL holder. Is that correct?

2. I also believe that a C&R firearm is exempt from the requirement that it be on the California roster of "safe" firearms. Is that correct?

3. If so, does the firearm have to be listed specifically on the BATF&E C&R list, or can a California C&R FFL holder purchase any handgun actually manufactured more than 50 years ago?

Any additional wisdom to impart? Thanks in advance.
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Old November 11, 2008, 12:43 AM   #2
sholling
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Quote:
I was wondering about how CA treats C&R purchases. I did a search of the posted messages and didn't find any.

1. If a C&R FFL holder purchases a C&R firearm out of state, I believe it must be received in California by a regular FFL and then transferred to the C&R FFL holder. Is that correct?

2. I also believe that a C&R firearm is exempt from the requirement that it be on the California roster of "safe" firearms. Is that correct?

3. If so, does the firearm have to be listed specifically on the BATF&E C&R list, or can a California C&R FFL holder purchase any handgun actually manufactured more than 50 years ago?
  1. Incorrect, a C&R can be shipped straight to a C&R licensee's door.
  2. I'm not 100% sure but I believe you are correct. Once here you have to pay the $19 and register the pistol.
  3. It has to be on the BATF list and at least 50 years old.
That's for out of state purchases and private party purchases. To avoid the 10 day wait for in-state dealer to C&R holder purchases you'll also need a COE from the CA DOJ. A COE is not needed for interstate purchases, but if you have one you're also exempt from the one handgun a month law.
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Old November 11, 2008, 01:35 AM   #3
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What is a COE? Just moved back to CA after being in AZ for 9 years. Looking into getting a C&R soon. Read through the posts but COE is a new one for me. Thanks.
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:35 PM   #4
flusher
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a C&R can be shipped straight to a C&R licensee's door.

That statement is incorrect
A C&R item must be shipped to a licenced dealer who then transfers to the C&R holder, in California
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Old November 11, 2008, 08:40 PM   #5
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Read this

http://64.82.96.51/cal-ffl.htm

In order to get a COE you have to download a form, fill it out, take it to a specified location to get fingerprinted, and mail it to the CA DOJ. You have to pay to get fingerprinted and pay the COE fee as well.
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Old November 11, 2008, 10:53 PM   #6
Ricky B
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Sabot, thanks for the link. That site is very helpful. For me, one of the most important points is the following:
NO PISTOL or concealable firearm, regardless of C&R status can be ordered from out of state and shipped in, or sold within the state without going through a Class 01 Dealer FFL.
This is consistent with what I've been told elsewhere about handguns.

AZta2guy, in researching this subject, it looks like COE refers to Certificate of Eligibility. It looks like that the COE may exempt one from the 1 in 30 days rule only as to C&R firearms, but I'm not sure of that yet.
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Old November 11, 2008, 11:54 PM   #7
sholling
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I have spoken to the DOJ person running the COE program. She was unaware (6 months ago) of restrictions on C&R handguns. As of last year you could import them and then register them within 5 days. I will research this further. Unfortunately the tangle of CA laws is clear as mud.

From the DOJ:
Quote:
I am a collector of firearms and I want to purchase a pair of consecutively-numbered pistols. Does the one-handgun-per-30-day restriction apply?

No. If you possess a valid federal Curio Relics Collector's license and a valid California Certificate of Eligibility, you are exempt from the one-handgun-per-30-day restriction.

(PC section 12072(a)(9)(x))
For most people the initial outlay for a COE isn't worth it. But once you have it it's only a small fee to maintain it.
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Last edited by sholling; November 12, 2008 at 12:08 AM.
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Old November 12, 2008, 12:19 AM   #8
Ricky B
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restrictions on C&R handguns

What I understand is that a C&R FFL holder may physically go outside the state and buy a C&R handgun (even though not a resident in the state of purchase, the FFL allows it), and of course California is not concerned what you do outside the state.

If you bring the C&R handgun back to California, either with your personally or by shipping it to yourself, you then become a personal handgun importer and have to file a report within 5 days and pay a fee.

But what I understand a C&R FFL holder can't do is purchase a handgun in another state while still in California and have it shipped directly to himself as a 03 FFL holder, that it has to go through an 01 FFL.

At least, that's what I am given to understand. I am in the process of sorting this out and am not holding myself out as an authority.

Any corrections are welcome.
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Old November 12, 2008, 12:42 AM   #9
Ricky B
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C&R FFL and COE and the 30-day exemption

Sholling, the example you quote may simply be illustrating the 30-day exemption as it applies to C&R handguns. The consecutive serial nos. may make the guns qualify as C&R.

The PC cite that is given in the quote is wrong. There is no such section. Of course, it is possible the statute was amended and the website didn't keep pace.

PC 12072(a)(9)(A) provides:

Quote:
No person shall make an application to purchase more than
one pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person within any 30-day period.
This is the 30-day rule.

The section continues, however. PC 12072(a)(9)(B)provides:

Quote:
Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to any of the following:
Subparagraph (A) is the 30-day rule. Subparagraph (B) contains a number of exemptions from the 30-day rule.

Subparagraph (ix) to PC 12072(a)(9)(B)provides:

Quote:
Any person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto and who has a
current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the
Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.
I assume that a C&R FFL holder is a "person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code."

Putting this all together, I read it as saying that a C&R FFL holder is exempt from the 30-day rule, and I don't see anything about it being limited to C&R firearms.

Let us know what you find out.
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Old February 9, 2009, 06:57 PM   #10
quiet-wyatt
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Hello,

I believe that a California C&R cannot buy and ship a C&R handgun to themselves. It must go through a Dealer (Type 01) FFL. A CA C&R can cross state lines, buy a C&R handgun, and "import" it as long as it's registered with CA DOJ within 5 days.

The 1-handgun-per-30-days applies to ALL handguns in CA - modern or C&R. One exception is if a CA C&R has a CA Cert. Of Eligibility. This exempts them from the 10-day wait and the 1-handgun-per-30-days rule, but they must still do the DROS paperwork.

I posted this on another forum for clarification, but as far as I can interpret the laws, this is how it breaks out... California likes to keep things confusing...


Buying from a 01 Dealer:
C&R license - within CA - rifle = 01 Dealer DROS – 10-day wait
C&R license - within CA - handgun = 01 Dealer DROS – 10-day wait – Must have HSC
C&R license and COE - within CA - rifle = 01 Dealer DROS – No 10-day wait
C&R license and COE - within CA - handgun = 01 Dealer DROS – No 10-day wait/No 1 handgun per 30 day limit

Buying from a Private Party in CA:
C&R license - within CA - rifle = Cash and carry
C&R license - within CA - handgun = 01 Dealer DROS – 10-day wait – Must have HSC
C&R license and COE - within CA - rifle = Cash and carry
C&R license and COE - within CA - handgun = 01 Dealer DROS – No 10-day wait/No 1 handgun per 30 day limit

Buying Outside CA:
C&R license - physically outside CA - rifle = Cash and carry - no CA paperwork
C&R license - physically outside CA - handgun = Cash and carry – Must submit DOJ paperwork and $19 fee
C&R license - physically inside CA - rifle = Rifle shipped to your door
C&R license - physically inside CA - handgun = 01 Dealer DROS – 10-day wait – Must have HSC
C&R license and COE - physically outside CA - rifle = COE irrelevant outside CA – See above
C&R license and COE - physically outside CA - handgun = COE irrelevant outside CA – See above
C&R license and COE - physically inside CA - rifle = Rifle shipped to your door
C&R license and COE - physically inside CA - handgun = 01 Dealer DROS – No 10-day wait/No 1 handgun per 30 day limit
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Old February 11, 2009, 02:01 PM   #11
EOD Guy
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California C&R Laws Explained

There is a lot of misinformation in some of the previous posts. Here is the straight scoop, with Penal Code references.

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers in the state to be processed through a dealer [Penal Code 12072(d)]. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.

The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ.

There are a couple of exceptions to the firearms laws that are available to C&R FFL holders. If the licensee also holds a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) from the California DOJ, they are exempt from the 10-day waiting period when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. [PC 12078(t)(1)] The same C&R FFL holder with a COE is also exempt from the one handgun a month law for both C&R and modern handguns. [PC 12072(a)(9)(B)] You also would not need a handgun safety certificate when purchasing C&R handguns. [PC 12807(a)(6)]


Where the C&R FFL comes in handy is when the holder is out of the state. They may purchase any C&R firearm and bring it back to California. The exceptions of course include those “evil” “assault weapons”. Also, magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds cannot be brought back. Any C&R handguns purchased must be registered with the California DOJ within 5 days and are reported on Form BCIA 4100A along with a $19.00 payment for each handgun. [PC 12072(f)(3)] The form is now on the California DOJ web site, forms section.
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Old February 17, 2009, 01:14 PM   #12
Ricky B
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quiet-wyatt and EOD Guy, thanks for your posts.
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Old December 5, 2009, 12:34 PM   #13
gfpd8405
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Thanks for the info everyone. I received my C&R last month and have been trying to figure out California's requirments. God willing I will only have to deal with CA for another year, then were off to Idaho for good. Keep your powder dry and be safe.
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Old December 5, 2009, 05:00 PM   #14
gyvel
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Quote:
It has to be on the BATF list and at least 50 years old.
Are you sure about that?

There are many, many guns that are over 50 years old that are not on the list, and BATF still considers them to be C&Rs.

As long as the gun can be proven to be over 50 years old, either by an applied date or date code on the gun itself, a serial number which can prove date of manufacture, manufacture by a company that has not been in business for 50 years, or other documentation ( sales receipt, owner's ID card with gun listed, etc.) it will be considered a C&R.

Last edited by gyvel; December 5, 2009 at 05:07 PM.
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Old December 6, 2009, 12:35 AM   #15
nstoolman1
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Quote:
A C&R item must be shipped to a licenced dealer who then transfers to the C&R holder, in California
I purchased my M1 from The Garand Guy in 07 and used my C + R. It was shipped directly to my door. The CMP ships I don't know how many to Californians all the time and they are not even a 03 much less an 01 holder. This is for rifles only. Handguns are a different matter.
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Old December 6, 2009, 01:38 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfpd8405
Thanks for the info everyone. I received my C&R last month and have been trying to figure out California's requirments. God willing I will only have to deal with CA for another year, then were off to Idaho for good. Keep your powder dry and be safe.
You'll be so much more happy here in Idaho! And not just because of the stupid gun rules.
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Old December 7, 2009, 01:54 AM   #17
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It does not have to be on any BATF list to be C&R.

It becomes C&R automatically after 50 years. There's also stuff <50 that has been added, but most of it isn't very common.
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Old December 9, 2009, 01:34 AM   #18
saands
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Notable "less than 50's":

CZ-82
SKS (some are now over 50, but most are still in their 40's)

I'm sure that there are lots more ... but those two just jumped out at me ...

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Old December 9, 2009, 10:37 AM   #19
Hardcase
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saands
Notable "less than 50's":

CZ-82
SKS (some are now over 50, but most are still in their 40's)
My apologies if this seems like nitpicking, but only specific SKSs are classified C&R:

Albanian, from 1964 to 1978
Romanian, from 1956 to 1962
Soviet

No love for Norincos.

But two big thumbs up for the CZs!
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Old December 16, 2009, 05:20 AM   #20
gyvel
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Quote:
The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ
If Kalifornia defines a C&R in exactly the same way the Feds, do, then there are some guns that are less than 50 years old that can be obtained by C&Rs, I would suppose.
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Old December 19, 2009, 04:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gyvel
transfers within California mu


If Kalifornia defines a C&R in exactly the same way the Feds, do, then there are some guns that are less than 50 years old that can be obtained by C&Rs, I would suppose.
Not within California. All firearms transfers in the State must be processed through a dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFLs. There is an exception for C&R rifles or shotguns that are over 50 years old. Any other C&R firearms have to go through a dealer.
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