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Old January 30, 2000, 08:18 AM   #26
pluspinc
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Hey SKTAC..notice my little jab brought out MORE good info? You got it right.
There are a lot of things we shoudn't do and many things my training didn't cover. When in the academy they kept talking about "TACTICAL handcuffing" whatever that is. They showed us how to handcuff someone and told us what WE would do.
I thought it over and asked the instructor an interesting question.
" You keep saying what we will do etc. Last Friday night I had a problem I could have used your advice on. I had a 300+ pound highly intoxicated and ****** off Indian woman on a water bed that needed handcuffing. In the processing one offer lost his balance and fell out a window and it took four of us or more to get the job done. How could be have done it better?"
We took a lunch break and I got a dirty look.
The picture on that water bed looked like something in a Laurel and Hardy movie.
Training mostly shows us what happens in only ideal circumstances. I'm sure you and others have a smile by now, but years ago I did an article in SWAT magazine called, "When Superman has to go to jail." I have seen little in training that addresses those types. We have to sort of resort to OJT. I have the scars from that type of training. You have any? Sounds like you do.

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Old January 31, 2000, 08:28 PM   #27
Tony III
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A handgun as an impact weapon?

I can evaluate this from the other side; I was pistol whipped with a full size .45 (I'm not sure what kind). Hitting someone with a handgun isn't somthing that you should stake your life on, & if your life isn't in danger hitting someone in the head with a hard object isn't responsilbe. The problen is that such a blow to the head will be inconsistent, it could kill someone & then again it might do nothing. It is also my opinion that for non LEOs you should either be running away or using the maximin level of force avialable in order to STOP the threat ASAP. That dosen't leave much room for intermediate levels of force.

If the guy had hit me with a piece of pipe I might be dead, however, If he had hit me with a piece of pipe the size, shape & weight of a gun..... well I'd bet even money that they'd of been removing that pipe from his.....

"Know the stillness of freedom,
Where there is no more striving"
- The Dhamapadah
- Buddha 563-483 B.C.

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Old February 3, 2000, 10:27 AM   #28
Gabe Suarez
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Hello Gentlemen,

I'd like to add some points to the impact weapons/firearms discussion. This is something I initially, some years ago, thought was a foolish idea. Not any more. I now both practice and teach it. Like any technique, there are right ways and wrong ways.

In reference to legal issues, its most important to win the fight. As much as some criminals deserve to die, it really is better if you win by not killing them, and the impact of a pistol is better than the report of a shot in some cases.

I teach the use of the muzzle with one or both hands as a thrust to face, sternum, etc. I am also fond of striking with pistol butt. This works very well with pistols that have extended full-length dust covers (ie. Glock, HK, etc.). The muzzle never moves back farther than the front of the dust cover thereby preventing round ejection.

For those in the black balaclava group (like me), if your pistol has a semi-permanent light mount, its a good plus. A 6 volt Surefire light will really light the way...if you will pardon the pun. I am also fond of the seattle Slug in a Glock. This is not for magazine loading, but if you see one, you'll get the idea (Ouch!!).

As far as effectiveness, I was present when a rifle armed suspect was met at the door during an entry, by an officer armed with a Glock as I just described.

The officer deflected the rifle with his support hand and struck the suspect in the face with the muzzle of the Glock. Results - An unconscious suspect with a broken circum orbital bone that lived to stand trial (good or bad depending on your perspective).

There are at least a half-dozen other tmes when this has been done, and it always worked if it was done right. Like any other tool, there's a special place when nothing else will work as well.

Gabe Suarez

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Old February 3, 2000, 11:29 AM   #29
BigG
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You know, the old "muzzle jab trick", *poke* !ouch! LOL

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If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
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Old February 3, 2000, 05:49 PM   #30
Spectre
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Gabe Suarez!

It is an honor to be reading your first post here, sir. I hope you enjoy your time on the board.
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Old February 3, 2000, 05:54 PM   #31
Spectre
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Oh- just to be sure I understand-are you saying that striking with the butt was good with Glocks? Or, where you referring to muzzle strikes?

Thanks!
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Old February 3, 2000, 07:09 PM   #32
Gabe Suarez
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spectre:
[B]Oh- just to be sure I understand-are you saying that striking with the butt was good with Glocks? Or, where you referring to muzzle strikes?


Spectre,

I've got a little device inserted in the channel at the rear of the magazine well area thats called a Seattle Slug. Its a brass insert that has a projection that is intended to guide the magazine into the well at high speed. The nice thing is that its metal and hurts like a *&%$#!! when you smack someone with it hammerfist style. If you practice the angle of the strike enough, you don't even hit the magazine floorplate.

One of my partners at HALO Group is working on a steel proto-type that protrudes out a little more for some extra Xs and Os on the impact end.

Gabe


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Old February 3, 2000, 11:46 PM   #33
tuc22
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I really believe that if you strike with the pistol grip/mag well you may damage the gun. Remember a semi-auto is only as good as its magazine feeding device. My original post refered to using the muzzle as a straight punch or using the top of the slide in a manner similar to a hard shove or palm strike, handgun held in normal grip with support hand under trigger guard/dust cover area. It was never intended to be swung as a club or hammer fisted or karate chopped.
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Old February 4, 2000, 12:29 AM   #34
Spectre
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Thanks, Gabe, that makes sense. (I was picturing that hollow area while performing a butt strike. ) How much does the Seattle Slug- or it's forthcoming replacement- weigh?
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Old February 4, 2000, 09:48 AM   #35
Gabe Suarez
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Tuc22 and Spectre,

Tuc, you are correct in the possibility of damage. Some of the guys I work with have done this repeatedly on soft targets with the lanyard loop of their 1911s without damage.

I've done likewise with suitably altered weapons. It definitely is not a Plan A situation, but if the situation calls for it, its definitely a worthwhile option.

There will be an article on this in the next installment of my newsletter. For those interested, contact me off-forum at my site www.thehalogroup.com (its free).

Thanks,

Gabe

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Old February 5, 2000, 08:57 AM   #36
Chindo18Z
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Two Cent War Story: My old First Sgt once attempted to "headslap" an NVA he thought was trailing his SF recon team. Top (tailgunner) detected movement/noise on backtrail...team goes into hasty ambush formation in heavy jungle. Top decides only one to two trackers are behind and very close to team. Team decides to take one prisoner, kill any others. Team masks with the intention of CSing the kill zone; Top will jackslap the proposed POW with his 1911; Team will kill the rest...Our hero hides behing the large roots of a jungle behemoth and springs out when the NVA rounds the corner...He slaps subject across the temple with the muzzle of his .45. As the pistol glances off a very thick skull (with no effect), Top is staring into the eyes of a very large (and ****** off) orangutan. Monkey goes ape (pun intended). Top wakes up in US Okinawa hospital with flail ribs, broken limbs, skull fracture, and scalp peeled from back of head to just above eyebrows (Orangutan put hand on top of his head and peeled him like an orange before doing a Samsonite suitcase ad...). Team shot the ape with CAR-15s. Top said it was the most surprised he had ever been in his life and that the monkey probably felt the same way...
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Old February 6, 2000, 05:21 AM   #37
pluspinc
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In speaking with one of our legal types about having anything on a handgun that would be designed or used for impact use, she had a point. She claims she would keep blurting the phrase "pistol whipped" at EVERY opportunity and said it seems cops haven't learned from the disasterous use of flashlights as impact weapons ala Detroit, Chicago etc.
I think I'll pass on that concept.
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Old February 6, 2000, 10:48 AM   #38
Gabe Suarez
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by pluspinc:
[B]She claims she would keep blurting the phrase "pistol whipped" at EVERY opportunity and said it seems cops haven't learned from the disasterous use of flashlights as impact weapons

There is great danger in allowing bean counters in dictating our tactical strategies. Striking a suspect (or adversary) is an option that fits a certain situation. If cops haven't learned, I think its a good thing, because its better to be alive explaining yourself, than liability free and in the hospital...or worse.

I for one have struck a number of suspects (and adversaries) with everything from fists to flashlights and shotguns, and even with a car. These instances all required that this be done, or that the criminal be shot.

The problem comes when force is used INDISCRIMINATELY in situations where its not warranted. Remember Force Does Not equal Abuse. Generally, the same force requirements apply as a shooting situation. If you can shoot him, you can hit him, although the reverse is not true.

The problem is made worse when the officer (or citizen) fails to adequately defend themselves and are intimidated by the legal opposition. Preparing to exlain yourself is just as important as preparing to tactically defend yourself.

I've been both sued and been the subject of investigations a number of times, but that doesn't mean that I will stop doing what must be done, whether that calls for justifiably shooting or justifiably striking.

A suitable response to the pistol-whip term would be "Excuse me mam (interrupt her if you must, even if an objection is made, your words will be heard) the suspect (or "robber" don't call him a "defendant")
rushed me, I was afraid for my life, he was moving too quickly and the circumstances were not such that I felt proper in shooting him. I used the only means that he left available to me by his hostile and aggressive actions, and that was to strike him with what I had in my hand."

Remember, lawsuits are certainly bad, but so are funerals..specially if you're the guest of honor.

Gabe

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Old February 7, 2000, 05:33 AM   #39
pluspinc
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The bull in the legal china shop is valid if the money used for the defense isn't yours.
Also there is the ASSUMPTION that the officers or individuals will use such things properly. I think Rodney King tapes say otherwise and the abuses from police with such things as flashlights etc., are pretty well documented.
We can start with discussing "saps." Now there is an OLDE term.
To try and turn everything we can get our hands on as a "tactical" (hate that term) weapon is getting so far out I just saw a flashlight with a .38 special in the bottom.
Good lord, what next? Coffee mugs with brass "knucks" on the handle? Most cops have a box full of odds and ends "toys" they aquire over the years, each demonstrated as the last word on the issue. Anyone want to buy a number of stun guns? Anyone want to talk about the big talk that pushed them onto cops as the last word? Everybody had to have one until the theories ran out and the word spread about how they didn't work. A lot of cops got hurt figuring that out.
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Old February 7, 2000, 12:31 PM   #40
nyeti
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Mr. Suarez, nice to have you aboard. I toatlly concur with Gabe's post. He works for one of the most P.C. agencies in Ca. and can back his stuff up. I have been in multiple shootings, and lethal force level impact weapon encounters, and have never been sued (pound on wood) for their use. The key is proper escalation of force, precise documentation of what happened (as opposed to the way I was taught) and the key is use, not abuse of these weapons, or force. And pluspinc, yes I dearly miss my sap, it still hangs in my locker, so I can look at it daily and remember the good old days.
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Old February 10, 2000, 08:40 PM   #41
tuc22
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It's been interesting to see some posters refer to this topic in the context of a beating, or a "pistol whipping", a "face slap", etc., what is sometimes required is a move that regains the element of surprise. A boxer uses the left jab in order to set up the right, a strike with the muzzle can have the effect of repelling an unwanted advance, moving the individual out of your line, or as stated before, regaining "tactical" ground or the surprise factor. A situation that turns from lethal force required to less than lethal force required seems to me an example of when such a strike might gain either time or distance needed to extricate one from danger.
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Old February 11, 2000, 03:03 AM   #42
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tuc22-right on the nose. Thats what it is all about.

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Old February 11, 2000, 06:02 AM   #43
pluspinc
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The most respected officer I ever worked with said the "SLAP" was the most effective weapon he had. I watched him many times SLAP someone and it came to a halt. He said it inflicted pain and no marks and always got their attention. At times he'd SLAP someone and at the same time do his restraint and cuffem. Few resisted. Also any witness would swear he "only slapped him."
It was hard for a lawyer to put a bad spin on a slap, but if you hit someone with a gun I know all the buzzwords the lawyers and even the witnesses will come up with. Been there and done THAT.
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Old February 11, 2000, 08:05 PM   #44
longbow
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Not to make this any longer than it has to be but I have indeed used the butt of my gun and the barrel end as in impact weapon against 3 quasi armed street toughs after they broke into my car and a bunch of others. When I say quasi armed two of them had sharpened screwdrivers and why I wasn't stabbed is beyond me. The only thing that happened was that I ended up partially ejecting my mag. after which the person that was on my right, his head made a great way to reinsert the mag. I ended up after all was said and done and they were arrested the front sight of my pistol had a small piece of scalp with a tiny bit of hair on it. The pistol in question was a Star FireStar w/Starvel finish in .40cal. The third one I ended up punching right in the snot locker with a very hard and fast reverse punch. You had to be there. This happened on Dec. 19th 1993 when I live in the hood. I still have the CR# somewhere. What gets me though is that I bet when all was said and done there had to be more than a dozen neighbors watching including the one who called me to tell me that 3 people were breaking into my car. A couple of things I learned from this is that if your going to go go all the way don't hesitate, do it now! The next thing is to have a good holster that allows one to reholster the weapon easily. The third thing is be totally commited to what you are about to do. Don't question yourself in the least. When you are commited make no bones about it and use any and all means at your disposal. The ages of these 3 gents was 24, 19, and 14. The 14 yr old was the actual leader or so I was told by the police. He ran a crew about 5 blocks from where I lived. The police said that he and his crew were trying to strong arm a dry cleaner around the corner. Who would have believed that. The big thing that helped me outside of adrenalin is that all 3 were stadium jackets with hoods. They twisted up nicely. Anyways keep'em sharp!
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Old February 16, 2000, 08:24 PM   #45
Rich Lucibella
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Welcome, Gabe. Thought you'd never get around to finding us.
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