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Old December 30, 1998, 04:15 PM   #26
MM
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Very interesting thread. This is something I've thought about often. I'm a "dog person." I've been around dogs all my life. My first advice is *don't run*. Unless the dog/s are far away and you have a safe place close at hand you will be caught. I've ran with dogs alot and except for very small dogs they can out run me easily and I'm not slow. Also, running triggers thier chase instinct. They become more determined to hunt you down. Instead of running use whatever time you have to draw or look for a weapon and get your back up against something. Make yourself as big and threatening as possible. If there's more than one there'll be a lead dog who'll be the one likely to attack first. Yell and threaten him with whatever you have in your hands even if its just waving your shirt. Against untrained/feral dogs this *may* work to put them to flight. If not the previously mentioned technique of grabbing them with both hands by the loose flesh around the neck can work. Grabbing thusly and swinging them around into whatever backstop you've (hopefully) found could work. IMO, the technique of giving the dog your forearm and putting your other arm on his neck and rolling to snap his neck has very little chance of working. Dog's necks are strong and thier spines are too flexable. They'll just twist around while holding onto your arm doing tons of dammage. Better off going for an eye gouge/grab and hope it lets go and runs away. Personally, I carry pepper spray and a knife and would employ these in a dog attack.

I ran afoul of a dog pack once in Ensenada, Mexico. It was a pack of about 10 feral dogs. Me and two buddies were drinking on the beach when we saw this dog pack coming. Luckily we were next to a rock jetty. We climbed up and scrambled down to the end. The dogs circled around the beach end but couldn't get up the rocks. They ran around on the beach barking for awhile then left.

I was also attacked by a pack of coyotees while camping in the local mountains. I had my dog with me, a little terrier mutt. He chased all of them off except one that ran to attack me. I grabbed a tree branch that happened to be on the ground and as the coyote approached I raised it over my head and yelled. The coyote thought better of attacking me and turned and ran. Both times I was lucky but hey, I'd rather be lucky than good.

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[This message has been edited by MM (edited 12-30-98).]
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Old December 31, 1998, 02:45 PM   #27
GLV
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MMN, some excellent comnments. Survival is mindset. Knowledge helps, but without the mindset " I will survive " knowledge may not be enough. George
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Old December 31, 1998, 08:49 PM   #28
Jeff Thomas
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The comments about yelling and making yourself look as big as possible sound right on - since dogs would seldom hear humans howling and carrying on like that, I imagine it would have significant shock effect.

SPEED is a big factor here as well - not only running, but also fighting. At least from my point of view, I have been absolutely amazed at how quickly dogs can fight / bite. I saw a dog fight once, between one 'bad boy' stray and four others. The 'bad boy' started it, and the four tried to finish it. The 'bad boy' got on his hind legs, put his back against a parked motorcycle, and took care of business - in about 5 - 10 seconds. All I could see was a blur of teeth and blood. The 'bad boy' won.

Unless I'm well armed and ready, I'll still climb the tree or otherwise escape. I'm sure a decent human can take one dog, but up against two attack dogs - that would be a real accomplishment. And, as I think Rob mentioned, perhaps an experience you'd have to relate to the other severely handicapped people in your hospital ward!

Let me ask another question, mentioned above in passing - stare or not stare? I was taught years ago to walk away from the dog, don't show fear, but keep the dog in your peripheral vision until you're out of its territory. I was taught that staring at the dog actually increased the chance of an attack. What do you all think?
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Old December 31, 1998, 09:04 PM   #29
Rich Lucibella
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Jeff-
In answer (supposition?) to your question, I believe eye lock with a dog has the same effect as with a human. The alpha will attack immediately, the "puffer" will make a tactical withdrawal.

Surely you've met dogs (especially little ones) who only attacked when you attempted to retreat.

As for me, perhaps I need to work a ribeye steak into my daily carry attire...it would certainly give one the opportunity to effect a leisurely pistol presentation. Heck, if you're quick enough, you might even be able to reuse the steak!
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Old January 2, 1999, 12:24 PM   #30
MM
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Staring - I agree completely with Rich. To a canine, whether it is a dog, coyote, or wolf, a hard stare is a form of a challenge. This could be enough to scare your neighbor's wimp dog off but will harden the resolve of the combat vet stray. I've seen dogs be provoked to attack just from being stared at. Just as in any fight, a non-focused watchfulness is, IMO, the way to go.

Also, in addition to my previous comment about not running (unless you have a safe place *very* close) I would suggest not turning your back and keeping your eyes on the alpha dog at all times. Seems obvious but I just want to throw it out there.

As for the steak idea, hey, why not? Seriously, though, if your walking home from the store with that grocery bag throwing down some food could get you some extra time to back off to a safe place.

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Old January 5, 1999, 03:54 AM   #31
Byron Quick
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Spectre, weight classes don't count for much when comparing humans to animals. The structure of the muscle fibers and the connections are different. This makes a VERY LARGE DIFFERENCE!!

I have raised Dobermans and Rottweilers commercially. I have been involved in Schutzund training. I also used to check out the competition's rent a dogs.

I know how Dobermans move. One on one they are not a problem to me. But this is based on intimate knowledge of the breed. The post about the guy who raised them and only gave himself a 70% chance puzzles me. I wonder if he fought with his much?

Rottweilers are another story. Love them. Don't want to mess with even a small female. I once grabbed an eighty pound female in a bear hug and fell on top of her. She got up and walked off with me holding her (I weigh about 260).

Packs? Gimme shelter. Large capacity magazines. If all else fails...smash the alpha quickly with maximum brutality(best of all possible worlds in a very poor situation).

The various breeds have very different reaction patterns, reaction times, grit, and musculature. Studying at first hand helps a lot. A Schutzhund trained dog will release you once you are down and not resisting. However, some people have trained dogs to other standards. I once had a command trained Doberman that would all out attack a pine tree if you pointed and gave the command. (I rescued her from the people who did this to her) Downside of command training is that one of these dogs will often watch its master beat to death while waiting for the command. Schutzhund type situational training is best in my opinion.

Many of these dogs work every day with no reward from their handlers and are dying for human attention. I have taken old tennis balls up to the fearsome attack dogs' domain and in a few minutes have them fetching the ball back to the gate for more fun. Think the place was very secure? If you use a guard dog...play with it regularly and DON'T let it play with anyone else. Train it not to. Also, a word about gender. Males are usually heavier, more muscular, and more aggressive. They can all be neutralized with one little bitch in heat. Females can't and are also more easily trained in my experience.

It is easy to decoy guard dogs in a fenced area. Get the attention of one and the others come. While the bad guys go in the other side. An easy solution for this is to pen a small loud barker where he can't be seen from the fence. Then when all the guard dogs gather at the disturbance...there will be one dog out of sight and raising hell. Make the BG's pause and wonder.
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Old January 6, 1999, 08:06 PM   #32
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Has anyone used OC on strays, protection trained dogs, or attack trained dogs? Ed Nowicki did a video in which a protection trained dog was sprayed with OC while dog was being aggravated. Dog put tail between his legs and hid his face.
OC is not anywhere near 100% on people and often does not work on EDPs, or people who are highly motivated and/or people that are very goal oriented. I wonder if the same is true of dogs? GLV
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Old January 6, 1999, 08:38 PM   #33
Spectre
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My insane younger brother (14 at the time) sprayed himself with Bodyguard OC. I no longer put much faith in it...(he began crying 8 minutes later. He was never in a condition to be taken out of a conflict.)
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Old January 9, 1999, 11:44 PM   #34
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IMHO, a good stick or bat will be better protection against a dog than a handgun. First of all good luch hitting an attacking dog with a pistol (a shotgun would be another story). Second, the cance of a OSS with a dog is almost nil unless you blow it's head off. Someone already mentioned a dog that took 4 shots with a .44mag to go down. How many humans do you know that could take three shots from a .44mag and still attack you? Also I recall a show on discovery or one of those channels where they were interviewing criminals to find out what they look for in stores to rob after hours. One guy said basically 'If they have a dog, never try to rob the place. A dog will easilly take two bullets from a gun and still attack you and chances are you will only get one shot off before he is on you'. YMMV of course.
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Old January 10, 1999, 12:41 AM   #35
Rob Pincus
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FWIW, I shot a nutso Neighborhood Dog that had been chased from my yard with a paintball gun many times. This time he had a hold of my wife's 3 pound Maltese. It was a Mutt with some Rott in him, probably about 60 lbs. I hit it with a .40 from about 5 feet and it dropped instantly. It was an original Black Talon bullet, they were still fresh enough to have in a carry gun at the time.
(Of course, I waited until any respectable dog would've been able to have shaken the life outta that little rat of dog that my wife had.... ) It survived, but sadly (yeah right) it was crushed by a large SUV tire a year later.



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Old January 10, 1999, 12:23 PM   #36
Spectre
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There was a big bulldog that kept wandering around in Spartacus' yard when I was there a little over a month ago. This dog appeared to be somewhat unstable, and inclined to stalk neighbors pulling into nearby yards. He probably was about 80 lbs. In any case, I considered popping him with Spartacus' .22 Browning, but was afraid I might not have the legal basis, since he had not actually attacked anyone yet (and, this was in the city, so it would not have been "discreet")...after having this canine fruitcake prowling the yard for an hour or two, I went out there w/ a katana, not a Taiwanese POS aluminum import, either. For some reason, the bastard would not let me close w/ him...

Raven, "OSS" are bs. I used to put faith in them too, when I was younger and more ignorant. If one looks at the methodology used, it's obviously flawed. I was fortunate enough to have my initial training under one of Taylor's Combat Masters (Don Busse). The doctrine was two to COM, evaluate, failure to stop if needed. Other schools teach firing until the threat goes down, but since duty handguns are horribly underpowered I am aware of cases where "bullet sponges" absorbed whole magazines of ammo until taken out by a rifle. That is why "OSS" is bs.
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