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View Poll Results: If it broke tell us when--otherwise tell us how long it's been going strong. | |||
Locking block broke in under 1,000 rounds | 3 | 3.95% | |
Locking block broke in 1,000-2,000 rounds | 2 | 2.63% | |
Locking block broke in 2,000-3,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block broke in 3,000-4,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block broke in 4,000-5,000 rounds | 3 | 3.95% | |
Locking block broke in 5,000-7,500 rounds | 1 | 1.32% | |
Locking block broke in 7,500-10,000 rounds | 1 | 1.32% | |
Locking block broke in 10,000-15,000 rounds | 2 | 2.63% | |
Locking block broke in 15,000-20,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block broke in 20,000-30,000 rounds | 2 | 2.63% | |
Locking block broke in 30,000-40,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block broke in 40,000-50,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block broke in 50,000-75,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block broke after 75,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block still good after 1,000 rounds | 8 | 10.53% | |
Locking block still good after 2,000 rounds | 15 | 19.74% | |
Locking block still good after 3,000 rounds | 5 | 6.58% | |
Locking block still good after 4,000 rounds | 4 | 5.26% | |
Locking block still good after 5,000 rounds | 11 | 14.47% | |
Locking block still good after 7,500 rounds | 4 | 5.26% | |
Locking block still good after 10,000 rounds | 5 | 6.58% | |
Locking block still good after 15,000 rounds | 3 | 3.95% | |
Locking block still good after 20,000 rounds | 4 | 5.26% | |
Locking block still good after 30,000 rounds | 2 | 2.63% | |
Locking block still good after 40,000 rounds | 1 | 1.32% | |
Locking block still good after 50,000 rounds | 0 | 0% | |
Locking block still good after 75,000 rounds | 3 | 3.95% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll |
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December 5, 2009, 10:05 AM | #26 |
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December 5, 2009, 11:37 AM | #27 | ||
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I thought this excerpt from an earlier Beretta discussion would be appropriate for this particular thread...
From a 2006 post by Chindo18Z: Quote:
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All mechanical devices break. Some just break more often.
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Figure The Odds... Last edited by Chindo18Z; December 5, 2009 at 01:12 PM. Reason: typo & miscount |
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December 5, 2009, 01:45 PM | #28 |
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John, I'd vote in your poll if I knew how....No, it's not a technology thing. I have no idea how to answer if I have to include a round count. I have a 92FS that going by serial number is a mid-eighties vintage. I also know that I am at minimum the fourth owner of it.
How many rounds put through it before me? Not a clue... I on the other hand would guess I have put somewhere around three thousand rounds downrange with it? I don't even know if the the locking block in it is the original. If wear pattern is used as an indicator compared to the rest of the gun I would say it was, again though just a guess. So, mostly just answering to confirm there is another 92 out there, my locking block is fine and I personally don't consider it any more of a concern when it comes to failure as I do about any other part on any other firearm I own. |
December 5, 2009, 05:19 PM | #29 |
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Question: are we just talking about breakages on Beretta pistols or on the Taurus and Helwan pistols as well? That could affect the data we're looking at here.....
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December 5, 2009, 09:10 PM | #30 |
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No breakages on any of my 3 92's. Two were bought new, an INOX in 2002 with maybe 2000 rounds through it, and a police special bought last year with maybe 500. Also bought a mint Centurion this year. No idea how many rounds through it, but it looked unused when I bought it.
The 92 is my favorite gun. It's the gun I measure others against. Comparing locking block breakages on used and abused military M9's shooting hot NATO ammo to privately owned 92's that are well manintained is a waste of time. I had a SIG 226. Nice gun, but sold ot for another 92. |
December 5, 2009, 09:36 PM | #31 |
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ok so where can I order a spare locking block?
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December 5, 2009, 11:54 PM | #32 |
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Beretta USA:
https://www.berettausa.com/e2wItemMa...084:3100000485 $59.95 MidwestGunWorks: http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/...ormance/LE9201 $79.00
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December 8, 2009, 12:25 AM | #33 | |||||
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The "borderline design flaw problem" theory is inconsistent with the apparently similar durability of the 96 pistols which subject their locking blocks to significantly more abuse and yet do not seem to experience locking block failures at a signficantly higher rate. The "batches of flawed pistols" has merit and you will note that I listed it as a possibility. However, that wouldn't explain why Beretta forum members don't ever seem to encounter any of these flawed pistols. So that explains discrepancy 2 but not discrepancy 1. Quote:
To be perfectly clear, I'm not assuming that the Beretta forum results are accurate, I'm simply saying that the simplest explanation that covers both discrepancies is invalid votes on the TFL poll. Ok, current results: 69 pistols represented in the TFL poll--11 broken blocks for a 15.9% failure rate overall. Of the 34 pistols with 5K or less rounds, 6 of them broke blocks--17.6% failure rate. Of the 35 pistols with 5K or more rounds, 5 of them broke blocks--14.3% failure rate. Even more interesting is that the poll indicates that of the 10 guns that fired less than 2000 rounds, 30% of them broke a locking block. If we're to take these results seriously then here's what we must believe. If you fire your Beretta less than 2000 times you've got about a 1 in 3 chance of breaking your locking block. Stick with it for around 5000 rounds and now your chances of breaking a block are just under 1 in 6. If you can keep going past 5000 rounds you have about a 1 in 7 chance of breaking a locking block.
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December 8, 2009, 01:15 AM | #34 |
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Well I know it's not a beretta but I have a taurus pt99 that was made in 1989. I am the second owner. The 1st owner said he put 500 rounds through it I'd say I put about the same. Well the block broke last sunday and locked up the pistol. Taurus is sending me another block. Mark`
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December 8, 2009, 02:02 AM | #35 | |
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I kind of suspect that the inclusion of a shock buffer as standard on the Beretta 90-Two pistols to be supportive of the borderline design flaw theory. Official advertising is recoil reduction, but I don't know of anyone who really complains about the 92/M9 being snappy, so there must be some reason Beretta increased their production cost on the 90-Twos to add the buffer. |
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December 8, 2009, 10:04 AM | #36 | |||||
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BTW: Do .40 cal 96s use identically dimensioned locking blocks, barrel exteriors, & slide/breech machining when compared to 9mm 92s? I would suspect not, but I honestly do not know. Quote:
I will also remind everyone of something I've mentioned before. Think about this. How many fellow shooters do you ACTUALLY KNOW who have the free time...the inclination...the consistent dedication to practice...and the $wallet$...to put MULTIPLE TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds through ONE pistol. How many have you even met or heard of? There are probably only a few thousand on this forum (and many are probably not even owners of Berettas). Competitive shooters? Check. Sponsored shooters? Check. Military & LEO with access to free ranges and ammo? Check. Range and Shooting Industry Employees? Check. The occasional well-monied Hobbiest and Itinerant Tactical School Student? Check. But most of us? A couple of hundred to a couple of thousand rounds a year through any one of our multiple pistols... The person who only owns ONE pistol? He/She has a busy life and bills to pay. Only out to the range once in a while more often than not. Hence MY distrust of anonymus poll votes. Folks get bridled at the suggestion that their toy is anything less than perfect...and probably feel compelled to vote in an imaginary number of rounds in support of their chosen firearm. It's human nature. If the shoe fits...wear it. I wouldn't care if every poll vote on the internet said that all Berettas are faultless through 500,000 rounds. I work around the weapon everyday. I've owned several. I have had the opportunity to personally observe the results of extended use across a pool of several thousand examples. What I've observed is locking block (and trigger return spring) failure. YMMV. To this point, the only things solidly evident to ME are... 1. GIGO (nobody seems to actually trust polls) 2. Civilian Beretta 92s DO fail (in fairly significant numbers ~15%) 3. Factory engineering fixes indicate that Beretta acknowledges M92 failures 4. Beretta Forum members seem to love their M92s more than TFL members 5. Thus far, this partisan thread has remained civil and lucid (fairly unusual) Anyway, time to go make the doughnuts...
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December 9, 2009, 02:15 AM | #37 | |||||||
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December 9, 2009, 06:33 AM | #38 |
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I know several guys who have put more than 10,000 rounds through their guns, and that includes 92's. You own a gun for 15 years and 10,000 rounds is hardly even used.
This whole argument is dumb. Ask an old soldier how great the 1911's were . My Uncle brought his back from Vietnam. Talk about rebuilt! This thing probably stormed the beach at Normandy. Wasn't an original part in the gun. And while we're on the topic of 1911's, anyone care to answer WHY they cost so much, when a S&W 4506 or a Glock .45 will fire the same bullet? And why do gunsmiths have "1911 tune-up packages" that cost several hundred dollars? Yet nobody would ever trash the 1911 like they trash the 92. If you buy an M1 or M1 carbine from CMP, you're gonna get a gun put together from bins of used parts. Guess what? Soldier's guns gets used, ALOT! They're gonna need servicing MORE OFTEN. The Beretta 92 is a great weapon. WHEN they break, it is usually the locking block or a trigger spring. The trigger spring cost a few dollars, and a locking block maybe 50 bucks. Not a big price to pay for owning such a quality built firearm. There is NO gun I have ever handled that feels as smooth as any of my 92's. Slide feels like it's rolling on ball bearings. So I picked up a couple of locking blocks over the years. Never had to use one yet. If I do, I'll pop it in an continue to love the gun. |
December 9, 2009, 06:45 AM | #39 |
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I had one break and it was pretty high count and an older square cut one. I was hoping it was isolated to the square cut ones, but I see a lot of the round cut ones failing too here.
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December 9, 2009, 10:01 AM | #40 |
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There's a thread on here regarding a Glock kaboom. Do some research and there are others. Despite this, the Glock still sells and is very popular. whenever I see a pic of a 92 being used in Iraq, I always look closely at it. Usually look very worn.
My 92's have never let me down. I don't shoot more than 1000 rounds a year through any of them, and I have a few locking blocks on hand. The 92 just feels perfect in my hand. It is smooth as silk and the slide feels like it rolls on ball bearings. I am super accurate with it, blowing out the center of a target at 15 yards, rapid fire. For all the benefits it gives me, I'll accept that the locking block MAY break, just like a part may break on any machine. I have sold other guns to get MORE 92's. mags are cheap and available, holsters and other accessories are everywhere. The one thing I will concede is is isn't the best candidate for concealed carry, but they do offer the Centurion and the type M single stack for Beretta fans. I have the Centurion, and it is fine for concealed carry. |
December 9, 2009, 11:55 PM | #41 | |||||||
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As of today:
BERETTA FORUM: 67 votes & only 4 commenters (other than JohnKSa) ; 3 broke / 64 OK TFL: 69 votes & 40 comments by ~ 27 other commenters, JohnKSa, and myself. 14 broke / 55 OK (although 28 of those votes are from folks firing fewer than 4000 rds) Quote:
Over 55% of Beretta Forum voters have fired less than 5000 rds through their weapons. Like many of you, I know a fair amount of shooters who go high volume (including myself), but the above numbers kind of correlate with what I mentioned about not many shooters actually shooting a LOT. We forumites tend to be enthusiasts. We hang together and tend to shoot together. The owners and operators of a million or so civilian M92s and military M9s are not necessarily frequent shooters. Hence the more common average of only a few hundred or thousand rounds expended over the course of ownership. Quote:
1. The Beretta Forum poll votes are probably fabricated. Some folks exaggerated their round counts and some folks who have had problems didn't admit to them, preferring not to start a flame war on a partisan forum. If you can throw an unproveable hypothesis out there...I'll join you on the same thin ice. I think it's telling that out of 67 votes on a forum dedicated to ownership of Berettas, only four people thought their poll votes important enough to even comment on the subject. Meanwhile, on TFL, we are approaching our third page of spirited debate, analysis, and investigation...just sayin'. 2. Neither poll to date has enough "votes" to provide any detailed conclusive analysis. Our statistically invalid samples don't yet provide enough fidelity. Maybe some folks with more broken blocks will weigh in (or maybe not). We need lots more votes/comments before we could define an accurate trend. There are only 67 votes in the Beretta Forum poll. It's a miniscule sample (as are the 69 votes in the TFL poll). For comparison, I've got almost a thousand Beretta M9s in my military unit. These are weapons that I can physically inspect, shoot, review maintenance records for, and query both the end users and armorers. And, yes, I respect the poll parameter of only discussing civilian 92 failures. I'm just saying that 136 pistols is too small a number to draw other than broad brush stroke conclusions from. Quote:
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December 10, 2009, 01:52 AM | #42 | ||||
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Forget the Beretta Forum poll entirely. Now look at the TFL poll results. You will note that the TFL poll results (even in the total absence of any other poll results) suggest that guns shot very little break locking blocks more frequently than guns that are shot a lot. That has nothing to do with the Beretta Forum Poll, it has ONLY to do with the TFL Poll. Trying to explain something that is seen ONLY in the TFL poll by saying that the Beretta Poll is fabricated makes no sense at all. Even if the Beretta poll had never been done the TFL poll would still provide results indicating that a little wear is more likely to break blocks than a lot of wear. That is a discrepancy since metal fatigue is a result of wear and the more wear the more likely breakage is to occur. Let's say we took polls in Brazil and Djibouti and found that the Djibouti poll results indicated that very elderly people (over 90 YOA) are much stronger and healthier than the average 20 year old person. You don't even have to look at the Brazil poll results to note that there is a discrepancy in the Djibouti poll. Trying to explain the discrepancy by saying the Brazil poll results are fabricated is nonsensical because the Brazil poll didn't generate the discrepancy in the Djibouti poll results. The discrepancy is SOLELY reflected in the Djibouti poll and even if we had never even done the Brazil poll the Djibouti poll results would still be indicative of a discrepancy. Quote:
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December 10, 2009, 06:41 AM | #43 |
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Well, 25 years ago, several gun makers vied for the coveted military contract and honor of supplying the fighting men and women of this country with their offical sidearm. Many makers put their best guns into the race, and in the end, SIG and Beretta were the only two left standing. Beretta won the contract, probably because they had a factory in the US, and they probably cost a few pennies less. They DID pass the rigorous testing that most others failed. For 25 years, they have been riding in holsters and going into harms way. They aren't going anywhere anytime soon. If you serve in the military, you use what they issue you, unless you're a special forces guy who has more leeway. A few of my friends have served over there, and are very happy with their M9's, so much that they have the civilian 92FS, as well.
In light of the fact that i do not shoot as much as a soldier does, I guess my odds of breaking a block are very small. However, I keep a few blocks on hand just in case it DOES happen. If it does, I'll change it out and keep shooting. All the positive aspects of the gun are MORE than enough to keep it. I've chosen the Beretta 92 as MY personal favorite pistol. The Glocks, SIGS, and Rugers I have owned have all gone away. |
December 10, 2009, 09:40 AM | #44 | ||
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The Djibouti / Brazil analogy only works if you are intent upon throwing out poll results due to an assumption of voter dishonesty. I would suggest that the poll (so far) simply shows that some Berettas DO break. If everyone on TFL had voted over at Beretta Forum, the numbers would be more in line. For instance, I didn't vote on that poll (I forgot my login ages ago and rarely go to that forum). You don't have enough data points to draw conclusions yet. I guess what I am saying is that, while you seem perfectly satisfied to accept ALL voting on the Beretta Forum, you are reaching for a reason to use voter fraud on TFL as an explanation for an apparent discrepancy between the two polls. I would suggest that there are other causitive factors (e.g., infant failure, metallurgy/engineering specs, substandard subcontracted parts, etc.) We need to look for those. Squirting some more camel through the eye of a needle... Although I understand your 90 year old vs. 20 year old analogy, I can easily think of reasons why an obvious "No Brainer" assumption could be false. In many parts of Africa, a huge portion of the young population is infected with HIV. The non-sexually active population of elders are indeed healthier than the youth population. The 90 year olds could have grown up as a generation with high nutrition, adequate health care, and a tradition of fitness inculcated into their existential fabric. The 20 year olds might be victims of a formative time of general famine, pestilence, no organized sports or medical care, and rampant drug addiction among the youth. You might indeed find 90 year olds in better general health than 20 year old malnourished heroin addicts. This would be especially so in the third world, where by default, a 90 year old is probably connected to the ruling class or tribe, benefiting from increased odds of survival due to being a "have" instead of a "have not". In that region, a 90 year old is some warlord's or sheik's mother. She is in better health than a 20 year old on a starvation diet in some border camp in Eritrea. Those who last, last well. Most don't and die young. Children growing up in the dietary deprivation of a shattered post-WWII Europe & Japan comprised a generation that was physically stunted in statistical comparison to their grandchildren. Their progeny grew up in roaring economic times, with better access to health care and food. They grew up bigger, stronger, taller, faster, and with odds of far greater longevity. I've actually been to Djibouti although never to Brazil (darn the luck ). I'm not actually debating the analogy choice you threw out there, just pointing out that there can be many (rather than one) factors that explain a discrepancy. The old "everyone who eats sugar eventually dies...therefore sugar is bad for you" blind alley. A true statement that doesn't actually explain anything. My point is that all of my empirical / anectdotal experience says that there should be some more failures listed over at the Beretta poll. The fact that there aren't doesn't automatically make me assume that TFL poll is bogus. I've already thrown out two possible reasons for a lack of "early broken" votes on the Beretta Forum: 1) the Herd Mentality inherent in a partisan site and... 2) folks who've actually had problems simply voting the opposite of their reality. With 95% of Beretta Forum voters not even bothering to comment, what I really suspect is that a great many votes are simply drive-bys from folks who may not even own an M92 (much less have fired one extensively). Impossible to prove, but my gut tells me this is so. I noticed that there are a hell of a lot of locking block discussions over on the Beretta Forum (some going back quite a while). Not all the comments are glowing. Perhaps those with less than stellar experiences sold their Berettas and got Glocks? Highly unlikely they'd continue to peruse a forum for a weapon they got rid of. Nor would they be likely to vote on a current poll. Again, the poll samples are currently small. Give them (both) more time. The fact that (out of a miniscule sample) some new blocks fail and some old ones don't is not suprising to me. Encountering failure of new machinery or parts is a pretty common occurrence, especially with weapons. It's not simply a function of metal fatigue. A poorly designed or manufactured part is simply going to fail early. One made to standard will last much longer. I believe that the M92 locking block design exists in a design world of too close tolerances. If anything is out of synch, the part will fail early. If everything is golden, that same part cycles along until normal wear and tear (metal fatigue) eventually causes it to fail. No different than any other weapon in that regard, but the Beretta seems to exhibit such an issue more than a lot of other weapons. Quote:
Here's another analogy for everyone: Look at the car or truck in your driveway. It's your pride and joy. You may have put a lot of hard earned money into it. Maybe your family rides in it everyday. Would you be inclined to keep it or buy another if 15% of that model's engines blew up during normal driving?
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Figure The Odds... Last edited by Chindo18Z; December 11, 2009 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Typos |
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December 10, 2009, 09:08 PM | #45 |
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Chindo, what the hell are you talking about? You're using AIDS in Africa as an arguing point?
Look, you're a soldier in the US Army. You take what is issued to you. You don't like the 92, but when you draw a weapon for the field, it's gonna be a 92, unless you're a Spec Ops guy. So maintain the gun. Look for wear on the locking block. Change if you think it is necssary. And MAYBE the Beretta forum poll didn't bother to post comments because choosing a response in the poll accomplished the same thing as adding flowery comments to it? We can do MINIMAL research to villify the Glock. Go the the gunzone website and type in Glock 19. See the horror show that the NYPD experienced. So I guess we should ALL get rid of our Glocks, huh? And before you ask, I was a member of the NYPD, and I personally can vouch for the negatibe experiences with Glock 19's. |
December 10, 2009, 11:22 PM | #46 | ||||
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Figure The Odds... Last edited by Chindo18Z; December 11, 2009 at 09:52 AM. |
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December 11, 2009, 06:31 AM | #47 | |
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Debating is fine. I love posts like this, but when you make outlandish analogies to AIDS in Africa, it takes away from your otherwise, sound argument.
And your opinion is based on service weapons that see thousands of rounds in a very short time. By your own admission, civilian shooters will rarely approach the round count that service 92's do. So MAYBE you can argue that the Beretta is not a good weapon for a soldier, but since the opinions of soldiers are the LAST thing that the government considers when changing weapon systems, you might as well talk to a wall. Beretta just got an order for ANOTHER 500,000 M9's, and that isn't counting the ones still in service that aren't going anywhere anytime soon. The M9 IS the sidearm of the US. The 1911 it replaced had it's own issues. Most of them were cobbled together from WW II surplus. Soldiers take what they are issued. As for me, lots of my friends shoot Beretta 92's. I take credit for that. When they shot mine, it was love at first sight for them, as well. Never seen a broken block yet. I would take a Beretta 92 over a Glock, SIG, HK, or any other semi auto. Feels like it was molded to my hand and I am deadly accurate with it. The locking block weakness is the trade off for a non-tilt recoil and super smooth handling. I think it's worth the price. So I bought a few blocks over the years. Who knows if I will ever need them? If I do, I'll change it out and continue to love the gun. Quote:
Last edited by Homerboy; December 11, 2009 at 06:36 AM. |
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December 11, 2009, 09:51 AM | #48 |
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Homerboy: Outlandish? In my experience, gunfights are pretty outlandish.
All we are doing here is just talkin'. Nobody is shooting at you on a forum. I like my guns to work. It gives me an edge. I like that. Everytime. Hope and Luck are not reliable planning factors. You buys your ticket...you takes your chances.
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December 11, 2009, 05:06 PM | #49 |
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I like my guns to work, too. And they always have. Matter of fact, only semi auto I ever had a malfunction with was the Glock 19. it was very problematic for a few years when it was adopted by the NYPD. Seems 25,000 guns is a better indication than 50 to a small dept. Still, the Glock 19 is regaded as a fine weapon, carried by many.
Since you're in the military and have access to more data, would you care to tell us how many times a locking block failure has occurred during actual combat use, and if a person was shot because of it? |
December 11, 2009, 08:00 PM | #50 | |||||
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Yes, a fairly large batch of very failure-prone blocks could weight the poll results toward early failures but I can't find data to support such a premise. Even your data doesn't support it since you're saying that the failure rates have been very similar over your entire period of experience. That's not consistent with the idea of a batch of bad blocks that would have moved through the system causing a spike in failures that then would have passed. Again, I'm not looking to discard votes only trying to find reasonable and reasonably simple explanations for the counterintuitive results. Quote:
For example, if it only happened after driving 100K miles and I could buy a spare engine for $50, carry it in my pocket and replace it in about 5 minutes by the side of the road then it wouldn't be a factor at all.
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