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Old December 3, 2009, 07:58 AM   #76
landcruzr
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I cant believe that anyone in their right mind would say that its ok to have a "badge" that identifies you as a CCW permit holder. The problem starts with the [person] who thought this was a good idea.

The badge itself requires training as you can see by this discussion. People who carry it arent even sure when to display and when not to display. Leave it home on the bedroom dresser- and just comply with the officers orders when he arrives- its safer for everyone that way

Once, along time ago, I stopped a car. Its 2am, pitch black outside. The operator stops his car, and opens the door(problem #1).

Then he rolls out of the door and is holding a silver colored metallic object in his right hand(problem #2). As he turns towards my clearly marked patrol car, he is greeted with a "Drop the !(*^#%^! gun! Get on the ground!

He dropped the object, put his hands in the air, and relieved himself-right in his pants(problem#3).

The object that he dropped was a badge. A badge for something other than being an LEO!

Last edited by pax; December 4, 2009 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Removed a personal attack - see TFL forum rules please.
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Old December 3, 2009, 10:34 AM   #77
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It is really easy to determine how much value a CCW badge has: Does the seller have to see your license to sell you a badge? The answer, of course, is no - anyone can buy one whether they have a CCW license or not. So the badge only means that you spent $40 or so to own a badge - your motive could be good or bad, you may or may not have training, you may or may not be a good guy, you may or may not even have the CCW license that the badge purports to represent. Heck, you might have bought it just to make the cops hesitate a moment so you could shoot them. You just had $40 to spend - that's all it proves.

If you think that LEOs don't know this, you underestimate them severely. I'm not saying you have bad intentions if you bought a badge, just that LEOs have no reason to value or trust a CCW badge. To me the bad guy is the one who took your money with false promises.

Just the thoughts of one "old fart."
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Old December 3, 2009, 08:39 PM   #78
Erik
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Just to be clear:

That "credetial and badge holder" pictured... If someone displayed it and it influenced my treatment of them in any way shape, or form during an enforcement action and I learned they were not a credentialed local, state, or federal law enforcement officer... I would arrest them. And so, I am confident, would most of my collegues. I mention it so that should that day ever come, you will not be in the position of muttering to yourself in the back to the car, "If only someone had told me."

Erik - Who has wirtnessed two security gaurds and one CCW carrier arrested for just that thing over the years. All where living out this fantasy being advocated here. All argued the arguments of the presented in favor of the "badges." IIRC: The guards were conviced of misdemeanors, lost their CCWs, and undoubtedly terminated. The CCW carrier was read the riot act, lost his CCW, and released with charges dropped.
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Last edited by Erik; December 3, 2009 at 08:45 PM.
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Old December 4, 2009, 11:06 AM   #79
threegun
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Most law enforcement isn't going to shoot either person as long as they comply with orders given and don't handle their firearm in a threatening manor. I'm not concerned with those guys. Its the rare bad apples in LE and perhaps the private citizen who I am concerned with. As I stated previously the badge combined with proper gun handling and compliance will likely stop these individuals from shooting prematurely.

Quote:
The manufacturer of these badges has sold you a bill of goods that you have baught into hook line and sinker.
Mine was a gift so nobody sold me anything.

Quote:
These badges only seem to appeal to a segment of the population that feels the need to advertise that they are carrying a gun, trying to be tacticool, law enforcement wannabes, or mall ninjas.
I'm not a wannabe, mall ninja, or a bragger. So guess this is not a correct statement. The few folks I know who carry one seem to have similar thoughts on its use as myself.

Quote:
Who has wirtnessed two security gaurds and one CCW carrier arrested for just that thing over the years. All where living out this fantasy being advocated here. All argued the arguments of the presented in favor of the "badges." IIRC: The guards were conviced of misdemeanors, lost their CCWs, and undoubtedly terminated. The CCW carrier was read the riot act, lost his CCW, and released with charges dropped.
So all were holding someone at gunpoint while holding up their badge and permit for responding officers?
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Old December 4, 2009, 11:25 AM   #80
Glenn E. Meyer
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Interesting point raised - in an ambiguous situation, it is hard to identify things. You might not want to be waving something metallic in front of officers under stress.

Open hands over your head seem like a better plan in the open or fixed on your steering wheel.

The metallic badge might glint just as nicely as a little chromed Lorcin.

It is also the case, to be blunt, that if you are a person of color or minority, some folks are quicker to think a neutral object in your hand is a gun as compared to something nice. Tons of studies on this out of the University of Chicago. In fact, those guys are making presentations on this to the LEO firearms training community to try to reduce the chances of off duty or plain clothes officers of color getting shot.

You probably don't want something trying to figure out what is that thing when they arrive in a shoot-out.

In FOF, I've been shot (paint ball) by an officer for just standing there when I moved in on-going fight and I had my hands up. The debrief was that I was moving when I shouldn't have. Stress is fun.
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Old December 4, 2009, 05:41 PM   #81
Brian Pfleuger
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Threegun, you clearly are not going to change your mind on this point. If all but one or two posters on this board, and EVERY SINGLE contributing LEO can't make the point then it's "unmakeable".

Considering that there is a 99.5% chance of never having to draw your gun, say nothing of pulling the trigger, I don't really think it's that important. I do hope that you never find yourself in that fractional percentage because it will suddenly be VERY important. You WILL be in for a rude awakening and I sincerely hope that no one else is taking your advice on the matter. As for me, I've got nothing else to say about it.

C'est la vie
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Old December 4, 2009, 05:47 PM   #82
Magi
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Quote:
Considering that there is a 99.5% chance of never having to draw your gun, say nothing of pulling the trigger, I don't really think it's that important.
Where oh where DO you get your stats, peetza? I have noticed your penchant for presenting numbers as fact for us to consider, despite your lack of citing references.
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Old December 4, 2009, 05:55 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magi
Where oh where DO you get your stats, peetza? I have noticed your penchant for presenting numbers as fact for us to consider, despite your lack of citing references.
Oh good grief... that's rhetoric, it's not a statistic. It means "really, really strong probability," and it's easier to type.

And Peetzakilla's rhetorical point is 100% correct.
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Old December 4, 2009, 06:18 PM   #84
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magi
Where oh where DO you get your stats, peetza?

There's lots of stats. You just have to decide what to believe.

Here's some:

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

That one has positively TONS of references if you'd like to peruse.

Here's some more:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm

Happy reading.


So, what do YOU think are the lifetime odds of the defensive use of a firearm?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
Oh good grief... that's rhetoric, it's not a statistic.
That's opinionated rhetoric based on facts, thank you very much. I do admit to being a bit less than clear with my use of numbers. Sometimes I mean "really, really low chance", sometimes I mean 99% when I say 99%... I really should clarify. This time, I pretty much mean it. There seems to be about a 1 in 200 chance of needing a firearm in a lifetime, out on the street, for a civilian carrying a defensive handgun, more or less.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; December 4, 2009 at 06:24 PM.
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Old December 4, 2009, 07:03 PM   #85
TimM
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Wild Bill Hickock

Even the best gunfighter in history couldn't identify a good guy coming to help.

Taken from Wikipedia:

While working in Abilene, Hickok and Phil Coe, a saloon owner, had an ongoing dispute that later resulted in a shootout. Coe had been the business partner of known gunman Ben Thompson, with whom he co-owned the Bulls Head Saloon. On October 5, 1871, Hickok was standing off a crowd during a street brawl, during which time Coe fired two shots. Hickok ordered him to be arrested for firing a pistol within the city limits. Coe explained that he was shooting at a stray dog but suddenly turned his gun on Hickok who fired first and killed Coe. Hickok caught the glimpse of movement of someone running toward him and quickly fired two shots in reaction, accidentally shooting and killing Abilene Special Deputy Marshal Mike Williams, who was coming to his aid, an event that haunted Hickok for the remainder of his life.


Still, I don't think I could stand by and watch an officer who is obviously in dire straights. But you make your own decision.
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Old December 5, 2009, 10:47 AM   #86
Magi
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Great. More rhetoric and less actual and verifiable facts. Just what is needed to advance our cause.
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Old December 5, 2009, 11:34 AM   #87
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magi
Great. More rhetoric and less actual and verifiable facts.
Did you even bother to peruse those links? LESS "actual and verifiable"? Seriously? That one link alone cites 68 sources of information, several of them news articles but several of them lengthy and verifiable studies.

Where are the "facts" on which YOUR opinions are based? Or are your opinions PURE, baseless rhetoric?
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; December 5, 2009 at 11:40 AM.
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Old December 5, 2009, 11:49 AM   #88
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And I'd say this one is done.

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