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Old November 18, 2009, 12:53 PM   #1
SJoseph
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unimpressed with remington 3" magnum 00 buck

I shot a couple rounds of 3" magnum 12 pellet 00 buck from remington last weekend.
I was sorely unimpressed.
I was patterning my shotgun with the 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buck from remington and stuck in a few 12 pellet magnum rounds to see how they compared.
The magnum shells suck. Their performance was horrible. I'll never buy them again and I'll never trust them for home defense or for any kind of hunting. (I figure if I'm doing either of those activities I'd like to hit what I'm aiming at, and these shells won't help me do that.

For the exact specs, you can see the info I posted here:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...4&postcount=17

In the future, I'd like to try another brand and see if the 3" magnum vs. 2 3/4" regular shell have a similar comparison.
Has anyone else had a similar experience?
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Old November 18, 2009, 01:38 PM   #2
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What's wrong with the regular 2-3/4" shells?
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Old November 18, 2009, 01:42 PM   #3
SJoseph
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nothing is wrong with the 2 3/4" shells

I originally thought that having 3 extra pellets would be nice so I bought a couple 5 round boxes a while back. Shot one box worth when and bought them and stuffed the other 5 rounds into my gun for HD.
After my experience this last weekend, I'll be sticking with the 2 3/4" shells from now on.
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Old November 18, 2009, 02:16 PM   #4
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Most people don't have any idea what it takes to pattern a shotgun well and give up before finding the best choice. Most all full chock barrels will not shoot 0,00 or 000 to it best. They will typicaly shoot 1buck much better but you still need to buy most brands and both the 2 3/4 and 3" to pattern. Some might even like 4 buck better but at the loss of energy at longer ranges. Now the long range part of this. You can with most long barrel full chock shotguns get to shoot a pattern that will kill deer at upwards to 100yards. BUT your shoulder will be junk buy this time. Bring friends,large dumb ones to help shoot and place a rolled up towel between your shoulder and but stock. If you have a cylinder bore don't expect any real range from a shot of any kind if the bore is improved or modified you might luck in to a good combo of one of the 0 series of shot that works good but at some what shorter ranges, maybe out to 60 yards + or = If the barrel is a shorty don't expect much from any for range . You just flat need a 26" tube or more to get all you can out shot gun shells. have fun
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Old November 18, 2009, 02:28 PM   #5
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You should try Federal's 00 buck with the "Flite control" wad.
I use load #PFC157 00 and it patterned tighter groups than other 00 buck loads I was testing including Remington and Winchester loads.
I was using an NEF Pardner Pump in 12 ga., cylinder bore 18.5" barrel.
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Old November 20, 2009, 03:38 AM   #6
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here's what I think

I have not done any pattern measuring w/ 00 buck, but have shot and seem quite a bit shot, at LE quals.

I believe your gun is shooting exceptionally tight w/ the 2 3/4" loads, and the 3" loads are performing more like the norm.

Seems like a read/heard the standard for Cylinder chokes was 1" spread for each foot from the muzzle w/ buck. That's not gospel, just an observation and if I read your tables right, that's about what you've got.

Well done on patterning your gun.........& w/ differnt loads no less.

Now you know.
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Old November 21, 2009, 06:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
I believe your gun is shooting exceptionally tight w/ the 2 3/4" loads, and the 3" loads are performing more like the norm.

That mirrors my experience, as well. In my cyl bore 870 Talo the Remington 2 3/4" 00 buck patterned better than any other brand I tried (Win X, Federal, S&P, Wolf, others). The plain jane Wally World humble Remington 15 count box beat everything else out. I was keeping all nine pellets in a 30" circle out to 32 yards. Nice.

Then I tried the 3" magnum from Remington (15 pellets) ion the same gun and the results were spectacularly abysmal. That said, however, the energy released by that big round was stunning. Every shot I took with it the 3" round knocked the entire prop'd pallet over and I'd have to walk in and reset it back up. So sure, the pattern was at least 50% bigger than the 2 3/4". But that stuff knocked the crap out of the target, and there might be a use for that big spread and heavy hit. So I keep some around.

Again, it's not that the 3" round is so very bad. But rather the 2 3/4" buck is so much better (pattern wise) than everything else out there in a general purpose round (not counting the LE rounds like Fed flite control stuff.).
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Old November 21, 2009, 08:57 AM   #8
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I too have found that Remington buckshot patterns worse than any other mainstream brand out of my Remington 870s. Winchester and Federal on the other hand seem to pattern quite well.
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Old November 21, 2009, 12:08 PM   #9
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I just patterned a few more rounds thru a new Comp-N-Choke modified choke I put in my 18.5" tac 870 this morning. The Remington 2 3/4" still blows everything else away, holding 20" patterns at 32 yards) there is a landmark at exactly 32 yards so I've been using that distance for comparison a lot. I haven't found anything better in a 2 3/4" round for my particular gun.
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Old November 24, 2009, 11:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
20 inch cylinder choke barrel

There is your problem, the 3" magnum 00 shells have 15 pellets not 12, if you turn the box over remington advises using a full choke for the best pattern. With a Cylinder choke you will get the biggest spread, and the more energetic the shell the faster it will spread. So if you have changeable chokes on that barrel try using a full choke or at least a modified and see if your patterns improve (they will).
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Old November 24, 2009, 01:15 PM   #11
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oo

Now, I'm really interested. I've patterned a lot of shot loads but never buckshot.
Those patterns are amazingly tight. I've read the "inch per foot" spread from a Cyl choke before. The NRA Firearms Fact book says one inch a yard for a full choke and 1 3/4" per for a IC choke.
Your patterns are way tighter than that. Maybe next weekend I take out the Ithaca.
BTW - I'm still trying to wrap my head around the other idea of deer killing patterns of buckshot at "upwards of 100 yards". Even at 1/2" per yard (which is about what the pictures were at 20 yards) , that'd be a 50 inch wide pattern with 9 shot in it.
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Old November 26, 2009, 09:38 PM   #12
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The standard for a cylinder bore barrel is 1 inch per 1 yard. This is what an average barrel will do. If you are getting a 25 inch pattern at 25 yards count it as good. You are looking for a reasonable pattern in a HD or riot type shotgun, not a super tight pattern. Spread is your friend within reason. It might be nice to get 3/4 inch per yard or 1 1/2 per yard, depending on what you are going to engage. If it is a single bad guy tight is better, but per say it is a crowd. A slightly wider pattern is nice for that use. Sometimes it is making mountains out of mole hills to get too wrapped up in pattern sizes. So long as the spread is even and not doughnut shaped it will be fine. Going much beyond 25 yards in a SD situation will be hard to explain in a court room anyway. Unless it is a mass riot and then I want a duck bill for maximum spread to get as many as I can at once. People tend to lose courage when two and three fall at once.

I don't get what the problem is. From what you have posted earlier, both are within acceptable limits for a cylinder bore barrel. Many shotguns with a cylinder bore barrel throw pellets outside an 18 inch target at 20 yards and people pay good money to improve their guns with Vang Comp and such just to get to 25 or 30 yards with all pellets in an 18 inch circle. You should be happy with the performance you got from both brands. If you want real tight pattern go with some tri-ball loads. It will cost you though. They are not cheap. Better yet, load your own shells and you can get the best you can, as you'll be the final judge in the QC of your ammo.

Want to see a real crappy pattern? Try some wolf buckshot. You will get 15 inches at 10 yards most likely.
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Old November 26, 2009, 11:17 PM   #13
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Oops! Sorry. Redundant post.
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Old November 27, 2009, 05:27 AM   #14
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spread

Slug:
Quote:
The standard for a cylinder bore barrel is 1 inch per 1 yard.
Not arguing - where can I find that info? It's the kind of data that I collect. That reference to "one inch per" for a cylinder choked barrel is way tighter than any I have found.
It makes me wonder what the spread data is for a full choke.
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Old November 27, 2009, 09:33 AM   #15
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My 870 likes the cheap bulk Winchester buckshot from Wal-mart just fine. It is only 2-3/4" 9 pellet 00, but that is PLENTY. It throws a 12" pattern consistently at 15 yards. A shotgun is not a long range weapon with buckshot. I would limit my shooting in an urban environment to the max range the shotgun will keep all the pellets on a man sized silhouette. In the woods, or other rural setting where collateral damage is not a major concern, who cares if all the pellets strike the target? At longer range, having the extra pellets gives you more of a chance of getting some in the kill zone. Also, if you don't like the way your gun patterns with plain old 00 buck, try some Federal premium copper plated, or any copper or nickle plated buckshot, especially if it has a flite control wad, or other shotcup (Remington makes some loads like this now). These will be as good as it gets with buckshot. On a last note, I don't care to shoot 3" loads, especially buckshot, as they really slow down your recovery time, and beat the hell out of you.
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Old November 27, 2009, 10:03 AM   #16
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A 12" pattern @ 25 yrds with any choke is pretty good.
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Old November 28, 2009, 08:57 PM   #17
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Response to 1" per yard standard for a cyl bore bbl.

It's not so much a particular source that it was read from , but rather information that has been accrued over my years shooting a 12 ga. I figure that just as most firearms ,even of the same make and model, tend to have preferences for certain types of ammo, so it goes for the ole shotgun. From experience and discussions with people over that last 20 years. It averages out that a cylinder bore barrel will shoot 1 inch per yard, if it is a good one, and it also helps if it is a more modern one.

In general most shotguns of the riot gun type would actually shoot a little worse than 1" per yard, but if you got one that did you considered yourself lucky. Today they call a barrel cylinder bore when it isn't really a cyl. bore. Typically they even have some constriction and it varys between manufacturers. In all actualality they tend to be more of a fixed modified choke. The real problem is related to the nature of a shotgun barrel being different internally than others. The amount of constriction in one barrel may throw a tighter pattern than another with the same choke, as the amount of constriction isn't the same for every manufacturer. You might get a good 18 pattern with cyl. bore on a new shotgun and then use the same model in say a 1976 cyl. bore riot gun and get 24 at 20 yards. Then you put a modified choke in the older gun and throw a 16 pattern with the choke in it. Then comes back boring in the barrels. Just as was said earlier more shot usually means a little larger pattern in the same shotgun, simply due to more shot getting in each others way to get through that slight bit of constriction provided by a choke system. What back boring will do, especially for a 3.5 inch shotshell is even out the spread and keep it a little tighter than it would without it. The problem with back boring is that it usually prevents the use of slugs, the only reason I can imagine that causes this little drawback is a pressure spike when it hits the chokes and that the thinner walls at the beginning of the barrel can't take it, therefore you are advised, by manufacturers, to not shot slugs out of a back bored barrel. Then there comes a point where your choke can have too much restriction and you patterns can get worse from it being too tight, not to mention in some cases it can be bad for the choke, barrel and potentially the gun and operator.

Suffice it to say, this is the reason people are often told to take a new shotgun and pattern it with different ammuntion and chokes. Find the best that meets your particular need and go with it. Another thing to consider is that people used to and in some cases still do cut a barrel down to the 18 inch riot gun length and then expect them to shoot as tight as a modern made barrel. When their new "custom shotgun" doesn't they go about blaming somthing for the problem, other than considering it is because they now have a true cylinder bore without the countours of a purpose built barrel on their new "tacticool" "shotty". For the best patterns buy a barrel and forget using a hack saw.

As the shotgun becomes more refined by experience and technology, expect them to get a little better than you see them today. Still, you should always know that the closer you get to optimum the more difficult it becomes to eek out more performance. Just like an old muscle car. They can get more powerful and have better handling, they still won't match a modern perfomance car, as the modern tech and knowledge gained from years past allow the purpose built machine to far exceed the origals in the envelope they were designed within. That old musle car can match you if the driver is more skilled and they sure do have a personalty, whereas the new stuff is almost sterile in nature.

There really is an art in the making of a shotgun barrel and getting the proper internal demensions in sync to have a much better patterning gun. Alot of things change and many stay the same. If you do load your own, putting buffer in with the buck shot helps even out the patterns as well. The reason has to do with less deformation of the pellets and hence less scatter and randomness in that spread.

Get your shotgun, load up on the ammo and pattern that sucker. Get to know what she likes and dislikes. Just like a good woman, she'll make you better when you really understand what she wants to be at her best, in turn making you better.

The organic nature of shotgunning has a method all it's own. For the most part this is where the saying, you don't aim a shotgun, you point it comes from. Granted this is more true of a custom bird gun, usually one of those ultra high dollar doubles, that seem to be outrageous in price come in. They are custom fitted and allow the shooter and shotgun to act as one, aiming only slows the process of engaging moving targets. To some degree aiming is a gun a conscious effort and it contadictory to typical shotgun useage. In a sense thinking about shooting and shooting are not conducive to great shotgunning. Even will all that said. It all comes back to the intended purpose of the shotgun you are going to use. A bird gun, slug gun, deer gun, and riot/ combat shotgun all have a slightly different set of standards to be met that will make them good at their job. Get what feels good to you and that which suits your needs the best.

Like most of you guys out there, I tend to like the riot gun for home defence and general purpose use and don't need a field gun for anything other than the occassional clays session or hunting bambi now an again. So it goes back to all that jazz with the lights, sights and the potential fights your partner may be needed in. The best thing to do is shoot, shoot, shoot. At the end of the day you'll find you know what you can, cannot, should and should not do with that boomstick.
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Old November 28, 2009, 09:57 PM   #18
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Thanks

Slug: Thanks. Great post.

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Old November 29, 2009, 06:44 PM   #19
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oops

Meant 1 inch per yard.
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Old November 29, 2009, 07:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slugthrower
The problem with back boring is that it usually prevents the use of slugs, the only reason I can imagine that causes this little drawback is a pressure spike when it hits the chokes and that the thinner walls at the beginning of the barrel can't take it, therefore you are advised, by manufacturers, to not shot slugs out of a back bored barrel.
Slug,

Depending on the extent of backboring the slugs can actually hang up in the barrel as they'll wobble enough to turn sideways or angled in the barrel and jam. Then you've got an obstructed barrel. Slug number 2 can turn barrel into pipe bomb! . Standard Accu-Mag Mossberg 835/935 barrels in particular are prone to this as they're overbored to near 10 ga. dimensions the entire length of the barrel. Dedicated slug barrels for those models are avialable though.

RR
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Old November 30, 2009, 08:08 PM   #21
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Good to know, always wondered why such was the case. Never knew there was that much a space inside. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Had an 835 about 10 years ago, was a pretty good shotgun. Wish it had never went missing after my return from service. Still bites my butt, that family would do such a thing. Oh well, it is a lesson learned. Thanks for the information RR. Always nice to gain a bit more understanding each and every day.
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Old November 30, 2009, 08:29 PM   #22
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Yep, I've had an 835 for many years. Good shotgun though I tend to use an 870 or 11-87 more these days.

Sucks that some family members can't be trusted around your stuff. I've experienced that myself.
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