Hollow Point Rifled Slugs for HD

[dabigguns357]

The post in this thread by the user wanting to use slugs as a HD load show his/her lack of respect for the innocent a round near by and a lack of maturity. The bump in the night goto weapon at 2am when your very groggy and not going to be able to aim is a shottie, loaded with buck. Why? Because you will not be able to aim well enough in the few seconds that you'll have to stand, grab, aim and fire, and hit someone with a slug. Wont happen, you will miss at least one time. If you dont think so you've played too many video games and watch too much tv.

OK i'm going to disagree with this,not on the side of over penetration but on the side that you can aim at 2 am when groggy,you can unless you have no experience at all with it.Also the same could be said about using handguns at 2am and not being able to shoot strait.Why am i stepping in on this,i use slugs in my h/d gun as well,i live in the country and i do also have a family with children.The most important thing to remember,is not what you use,but how well you know your weapon and the ways to use them properly.

Now on to the types of slugs i use,they are Winchester 2 3/4 1 oz managed recoil slugs=1,200 fps which are about the same as Remington 2 3/4 00# buck shot at 1,325 fts.

Btw if you use the search function on this group,sometime back there was a break in with 4 b/g's who wore body armor.I want max penetration if need be and buck shot just doesn't have the same trauma effect on body armor.

[RockyMtnTactical]

I prefer OO buck, but a slug could be used. I am sure it will do the job.

[sholling]

Why am i stepping in on this,i use slugs in my h/d gun as well,i live in the country and i do also have a family with children.The most important thing to remember,is not what you use,but how well you know your weapon and the ways to use them properly.

Living in the country it might make since to use slugs. The point that people have been trying to make is that it doesn't for someone living in the city, or the suburbs, or anyplace where there are densely packed neighbors.

[dabigguns357]

I wonder if there are any stats about a slug vs buckshot in an urban setting.Has anyone ever been shot with a slug from one house to another.

As for using slugs in the city,i had my gun loaded with them when i lived on 24th st in Huntington,Wv ,again they were managed recoil slugs but just as effective as anything else.

Even now i still have neighbors,just not as close,and i still use slugs.I will say this about slugs,i wouldn't use them in apt's or duplexes.If you feel comfy using slugs and are prepared for what may happen then use them,if not,use buckshot but still know the effects they cause.

here is what sits next to my bed every night when i'm sleeping.every one of those shells you see on that belt are managed recoil slugs along with the 6 in my gun.Oh and don't laugh to hard at my homemade holster.

[MTT TL]

I wonder if there are any stats about a slug vs buckshot in an urban setting.Has anyone ever been shot with a slug from one house to another.

In several years of research I have yet to find a single case. There was a case a few years ago of a drive by shooter penetrating a single exterior wall and wounding an interior occupant with a slug but he was actively trying to hit the residents, so this was not an accident.

The post in this thread by the user wanting to use slugs as a HD load show his/her lack of respect for the innocent a round near by and a lack of maturity.

Again, barring even a single case of an accidental shooting this appears to be the mark of ignorance. I would suggest more research on the subject, before making an uninformed opinion. I prefer to leave uninformed opinions to the antis.

You have a slight amount of "flub" room.

I am not 100% sure what you mean by "flub room" but if you mean that buckshot will disperse more widely and make targets easier to hit, I will say that the advantage is quite small at most HD ranges. By the same token, you can miss with more pieces of shot as well.

Go pattern you weapon with several loads and see the results.

I use rifled slug barrels. The pattern on that is quite dispersed at 15 feet. I would say the chance of me hitting an unintended target goes up astronomically.

If you think you'll be able to aim the weapon with little to no margin of error, cause your life will rely on it, than get a rifle.

If you are trying to imply in any way that you don't need to aim a shotgun as well as a rifle we are going to have to disagree.

Your line of thought shows your inexperience and multiple tactical mistakes, that WILL result in injury to yourself and to others.

Hopefully some day I will be "experienced" like you, but I don't think I will ever stop making mistakes.

Tell us where you live so we can move.

I live in the City of Thi, it is right over there under location. Since I know everyone who lives here I can assure you, that you are in no danger.

A know it all attitude has no place around firearms.

Well at least we agree on one thing.

[robfromsc]

Mtt tl... Your responces show your maturity and know it all attitude. I'm not trying to argue with you. Here's the way the ball bounces fella, most HD shotties with a combat choke will pattern at about 8-9" at 15-20'. The average distance of a clear shot in a home. That's your "flub" room...8-9".

[MTT TL]

Well which is it?

This:

The post in this thread by the user wanting to use slugs as a HD load show his/her lack of respect for the innocent a round near by and a lack of maturity.

Or this:

I'm not trying to argue with you.

You accuse me of being infantile and reckless several times and then you don't want to argue?

I understand, you have no evidence to support your false assertion therefore your argument is very weak. If I were in your place I would not want to argue either. But I don't go around making unsupported statements or untrue allegations either. Has to do with maturity levels I think.

[Lee Lapin]

...most HD shotties with a combat choke will pattern at about 8-9" at 15-20'.

Hmm. None of the ones we use here are that open, at least with the loads we use. The 870 on my side of the bed has an 18" factory CYL barrel and will pretty well hold 4" patterns with Federal LE 127-00 (9 00 pellets, 1325 fps) at 25 yards/75 feet. At 15-20 feet it's still making one ragged hole not a lot bigger than bore size.

And that's exactly what I want it to do. Hitting with it is my job, patterning is what the ammo is supposed to do.

lpl

[Cruncher Block]

The fact that a smoothbore shotgun can effectively launch shot or slugs is often cited as the gun's strength.

I'm starting to wonder if it's the gun's weakness.

Why? Because it encourages people to spend time thinking about how to handle a situation with a shotgun when the better answer might be, "Grab something else." (or get the heck out of there)

Think about the "select slug" drill. I'm not against select slug but I have to wonder: what other gun puts so much emphasis on changing ammo characteristics in the middle of fighting?

Presumably, something about the fight will make someone say, "Gee, nine .32 caliber pellets flying the same direction at the same time isn't working. What I really need now is a single big hunk of lead." If you were in that situation with a pistol or rifle, you probably wouldn't think about it nearly as much. You would have chosen your ammo based on it's overall performance, practiced with it, learned what it does, and accepted it's limitations. And all of the choices have limitations.

I wonder if all the hand-wringing about whether to load the shotgun with buckshot, birdshot, or slugs is putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps it makes more sense to match the ammo to the purpose and then buy the gun that effectively launches the ammo. If buckshot matches the purpose, buy a shotgun, load it with good buckshot, and practice with buckshot. On the other hand, if .308 matches the purpose, buy a rifle.

[.45 COLT]

Hollow Point Rifled Slugs for HD

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Are they any good for that purpose?

Yes.

DC

[Kmar40]

...most HD shotties with a combat choke will pattern at about 8-9" at 15-20'.

There's a chart here:
http://hunting.about.com/od/shotgun/...hotgunfaqa.htm

Not sure what to think about that. I'm sure if you are throwing a pattern of small birdshot the pattern might be that wide. Of course, with only 8 or 9 pellets, the potential pattern is the same size I guess but the actual pattern is smaller.

Hmm. None of the ones we use here are that open, at least with the loads we use. The 870 on my side of the bed has an 18" factory CYL barrel and will pretty well hold 4" patterns with Federal LE 127-00 (9 00 pellets, 1325 fps) at 25 yards/75 feet. At 15-20 feet it's still making one ragged hole not a lot bigger than bore size.

Double hmmm. Is that flite control or something? That's not a normal choke pattern.

I'm currently attending an firearms program for the .gov. Quite a few agencies here and several different shotguns present. None are anywhere close to that tight.

I'm not even sure I've seen a turkey gun that tight.

[MTT TL]

Perhaps it makes more sense to match the ammo to the purpose and then buy the gun that effectively launches the ammo.

Exactly. All I am saying is; to rule a particularly effectively loading out for an unsubstantiated reason is the height of foolishness.

[Lee Lapin]

I'm currently attending an firearms program for the .gov. Quite a few agencies here and several different shotguns present. None are anywhere close to that tight.

I'm not even sure I've seen a turkey gun that tight.

Yes, it's FliteControl. It's an old 870 Police barrel I bought used, and haven't done anything to since I got it except shoot it and clean it. It just likes that load a lot. Any number of guns will do that well withFliteControl loads, not just this one. Get some and try it... quit using ammo supplied by the lowest bidder .

lpl (retired DoD employee)

[sholling]

All I am saying is; to rule a particularly effectively loading out for an unsubstantiated reason is the height of foolishness.

People used to fire guns into the air to celibate New Years. The number of people killed each year from falling bullets was infinitesimal. Does that mean it was foolish for cities to ban firing into the air?

Second it is beyond foolish to look to a body count to "substantiate" a risk. A responsible gun owner balances sufficient penetration to reliably stop an attacker with the risk of hitting an innocent. Can it or can't it go through 6 walls and is there a risk to innocents in those rooms? That's why I would never consider grabbing a 44mag or my M1A to stop a burglar. 00 buck or 5.56 will do the job without penetrating 6 walls.

Anyway I'm not going to argue the point anymore.

[Kmar40]

Get some and try it... quit using ammo supplied by the lowest bidder .

Why? I want a pattern if I'm grabbing a shotgun.

I recognize that at distances encountered by .mil, a much tighter pattern may well be preferable.

I just don't think it would be my choice for a home gun.

[MTT TL]

Can it or can't it go through 6 walls

In the real world feasibly it can not. Again I invite you to think about why that would be so. As a hint I will tell you that the BoT test did not shoot through six walls. It shot through 12 pieces of wall board several inches apart. It is crazy talk to try to equate that to six walls.

and is there a risk to innocents in those rooms?

Well that depends on the situation. This discussion is about killing your next door neighbor, not somebody in the next room. Any effective round (buckshot, 9mm, .45 etc) will pose a risk to the person in the next room of most conventional houses.

People used to fire guns into the air to celibate New Years. The number of people killed each year from falling bullets was infinitesimal. Does that mean it was foolish for cities to ban firing into the air?

sigh

I would say if the number killed/ wounded were ZERO and the people were firing to save their lives and not in a drunken gratuitous haze then yes it was foolish to ban it.

Anyway I'm not going to argue the point anymore.

Well Ok.

[Lee Lapin]

Why? I want a pattern if I'm grabbing a shotgun.

Choices are good. I'm in favor of them.

I use a shotgun as a short range defensive weapon because it's the largest caliber long gun I can easily handle, and it fires payloads measured in ounces not grains. As Clint Smith says, I like shotguns because they will remove meat and bone from a target. I choose shotguns for their terminal effect, not to make up for my own shortcomings at delivering the payload on target. It's my job to hit what I shoot at, it's the shotgun's job to neutralize what I hit. A minimum of research into the history of fighting shotguns will provide more than adequate evidence as to their efficiency as fight stoppers when used properly.

My choice is for tight patterns even in a plain ordinary joe citizen defensive shotgun. I want to get as much useful range out of buckshot as I can before I have to switch to slugs. In the terms many shotgun trainers use, I want to extend my 'A zone' to the point that I can eliminate the 'B zone' completely.

It's my conclusion that buckshot pellets can run out of sufficient energy to do the job before they run out of pattern in some cases, and I don't want to push my luck at ranges much longer than 25 yards with buckshot no matter how well it patterns.

The load and barrel I use allows me to extend my A zone out to 25 yards or so, at which point I will likely be switching to slugs anyway if circumstances permit.

That has nothing to do with police needs, or military needs, or anyone else's needs. That's my choice based on my own training and experience.

YMMV of course.

lpl
----------------
http://www.officer.com/print/Law-Enforcement-Technology/In-defense-of-the-shotgun/1$40875

/snip/
Patterning
Patterning is how you determine the spread of the buckshot as the range increases. It is the first step in understanding how your weapon will perform with buckshot. To pattern, fire single rounds at paper targets from 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 yards. Knowing how the gun patterns is a very important part of training and should be the first thing taught to shotgun shooters.

A shotgun has three levels of use typically referred to as zones. The A zone is where the shotgun is a truly devastating weapon. It's measured from the muzzle out to where the buckshot pattern stays together so that it makes one big ugly hole in the target; this hole can be covered with your open hand. Depending on the weapon/ammo combination, the A zone is out to around 7 to 10 yards.

The B zone is where the pellets have had time to spread out and develop a pattern but are still on target. This is the zone where the shotgun is most effective and can be exploited to the fullest. The weapon can be fired quickly with a flash sight picture and still make good hits. The B zone goes from about 10 to 20 yards. Inside 20 yards, the shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot is king, but if you need to engage a target at more than 20 yards and you only have 00 buck, the rifle is the way to go.

The C zone is the point at which the pellets spread out and some may be off the target. While still lethal, the loss of control of the pattern makes the use of buckshot unacceptable for law enforcement.

Advances in modern ammunition have a huge effect on how a shotgun patterns. Simply changing ammunition can reduce the spread of the pattern by 50 percent. Each gun and ammunition combination will also pattern differently. It is important that the gun be patterned using the same ammunition that is carried on duty so that an officer can be certain of how the gun will perform in combat.
/snip/

[Webleymkv]

While I don't think that harder slugs like Brenneke's would be such a great idea, I don't really see where the soft lead Forster slugs would be such a bad idea (certainly no worse than 00 or 000 buckshot). However, if one is going with a single projectile anyway, I don't really see where a slug loaded shotgun has much advantage over a rifle with carefully chosen ammunition (JHP's out of my Marlin 45-70 would seem just as good or better in a handier and easier shooting package).

[MTT TL]

JHP's out of my Marlin 45-70 would seem just as good or better in a handier and easier shooting package

I would certainly think so. One of the advantages of slugs out of a shorter barrel shotgun is that they will not travel much past 150 yards till the drop has them in the dirt.

[spacecoast]

One of the advantages of slugs out of a shorter barrel shotgun is that they will not travel much past 150 yards till the drop has them in the dirt.

What difference does it make if the barrel is shorter?

[ADB]

A longer barrel means more velocity, because it provides a longer time for the load to be accelerated by the expanding gases.

[spacecoast]

A longer barrel means more velocity, because it provides a longer time for the load to be accelerated by the expanding gases.

According to what I have read, this is not true in a shotgun because the barrel is likely to be at least 18" long.

[MTT TL]

What difference does it make if the barrel is shorter?

Because the "30 turkey barrel on my 1100 is kind of hard to maneuver with inside the house.

[JerseyDrez]

Because the "30 turkey barrel on my 1100 is kind of hard to maneuver with inside the house.

My 28'' field barrel isnt that much different, and I feel comfortable using it for HD.

Yet Im not going to be the rare person trying to clear the house if I hear a noise. Ill be bunkering down with my family behind me, waiting for him to kick down the bedroom door.

[hogdogs]

Quote:
One of the advantages of slugs out of a shorter barrel shotgun is that they will not travel much past 150 yards till the drop has them in the dirt.

What difference does it make if the barrel is shorter?

Actually the reasoning is in valid... You first say the advantage of a slug out of a short barrel will drop then you say the reason is your 30 inch barrel is too long for in the house... which is it? And I think that the slug will drop sooner from a 30 inch barrel as I think that it is longer than it takes to reach max velocity so it may actually be going slower than from a 20-22 incher... But, as usual, I could well be wrong.
Brent