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Old October 29, 2009, 01:01 PM   #1
lara
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speed-load system

I'm trying to perfect a single push speed-load system using a clear tube with 2 pyrodex pellets and a sabot with a oiled cleaning patch.I'm wondering if anyone thinks there might be a problem if the patch remains seated on top of the sabot in the barrel and fired that way.What say you?
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Old October 29, 2009, 02:05 PM   #2
robhof
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I wouldn't want to have anything on top of any bullet in any gun, except wads for shot. The patch could be driven to one side and cause a pressure problem, or if you're lucky, just affect the POI and overall accuracy. Even for round ball shooting; for best accuracy the patch isn't supposed to extend much over the sides of the ball.
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Old October 29, 2009, 02:52 PM   #3
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Anything forward of a ball in a barrel is called an obstruction ... I wun't do it.
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Old October 29, 2009, 04:12 PM   #4
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Thanks guys,thats exactly the input I needed.In my way of thinking,the patch was soft and could be pushed out ahead of the bullet.but I can see how it could be climbed on and cause an obstruction as the bullet came forward.I'll keep playing with it till I figure a way to make sure I can retrieve the patch when I pull the ramrod.Great forum!
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Old October 30, 2009, 09:03 AM   #5
Wild Bill Bucks
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Barrel cleaning should be done BEFORE loading. A sabot is made to shoot through a DRY barrel. If you put any oil in the barrel after loading you will not get any accuracy out of your sabots.
Lots of people have tried to make cleaning and loading a little easier, but as to date I have yet to see anyone who has been able to improve on the original process of cleaning first and loading second. They are two separate parts of muzzle loading and trying to put them both together just doesn't work.

My 2 cents
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Old October 31, 2009, 02:01 AM   #6
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In years past hunting muleys.I've had to try 2nd and third shots(in one case,4)no need to bare my soul,you guys know how that happens,by the third reload I had a time getting the bullet seated and the buck was putting distance between us.It's pretty tough dragging a smokepole over rough terrain trying to follow the correct sequence with one eye on your barrel and the other trying to keep the deer in sight huffing and puffing like a freight train pulling a grade.So in my simple mind i'm thinking,if I could figger a way to do this in one stroke(dump the pellets,sabot, push em down with a swab or patch-voila! he's only 150 yds out,I can get another crack at him.and now you guys tell me this won't work?I'm getting old,fat and outta shape but i'm not gonna quit, so I will figure out a way to reload quicker and maintain accuracy.Thats why I'm asking questions and with your help,I can do it.I just need to know what has worked for you and what hasn't.Appreciate your help
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Old October 31, 2009, 08:12 AM   #7
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Why not try a cleaner powder? IMO, Pyrodex(although good) is not the cleanest powder out there. I can get about three shots off using American Pioneer loose powder before swabbing/cleaning and accuracy is still plenty good enough for hunting. Barrel to boolit dimensions,YMMV.Just a suggestion.
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Old October 31, 2009, 11:38 AM   #8
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I may have found a solution.I picked up a pack of powerbelt plats the other day and read the entire instruction sheet.They claim 6 to 8 shots with no cleaning so I'm going to head to the range and give it a try.If I can shoot that many times accuratly?,I'll be forced to face the naked truth.(I thought I was past buck fever)
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:29 PM   #9
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Shortwave,when I got my Hawken many years ago,(I have acquired a TC Encore and my favorite,a Ruger 77/50 since)I got a flask and a adjustable powder measure with it.In an excited moment of reloading,I spilled powder,lost my measure,probably put 3-400 grains in the barrel.The reason I still have a face to shoot with is probably because of that heavy well made old Hawken.I still have most of a can of powder from back then,but I now use mostly pellets to avoid that kind of blunder.If I get to the point where I do a lot more shooting at the range,it would be fun to experiment with loose powder loads and bullets.Thank you for your reply
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Old October 31, 2009, 02:18 PM   #10
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lara, sorry to hear of your blunder and thank 'God' your ok. Even more thankful there wasn`t a hot ember left in the pipe. If you ever want to shoot loose powder in the field, take your speed loaders and load them with your desired 100grns.(or whatever) of powder. Hope your Encore shoots the Powerbelts better than mine. It won`t. I`ve got a Rem. that shoots them quite well out to 100yds. Maybe one of yours will. This is a good time to remind everyone that you should NEVER put powder in a bp rifle out of can/powder flask in the field or at the range. Just to dangerous in to many ways. Pour powder from can into a measurer then into the barrel keeping barrel away from face.
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Old November 1, 2009, 01:50 AM   #11
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My suggestion would be to load the tighter sabot for the 1st shot and then load a Powerbelt for subsequent follow up shots once the barrel is dirty and when hunting out in the field.
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Old November 2, 2009, 10:31 AM   #12
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arcticap-then do you feel the sabot with the full plastic is more accurate then the powerbelt? Is the reason the powerbelt is easier to load on subsequent shots is because it doesn't fit as tight?thanks
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Old November 2, 2009, 11:58 AM   #13
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arcticap-then do you feel the sabot with the full plastic is more accurate then the powerbelt?
Powerbelts aren't going to be more accurate in every rifle, and I don't think that they are as accurate being fired from as many different brands of rifles as sabots are. It depends on what your rifle likes best and what you learn from testing.

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Is the reason the powerbelt is easier to load on subsequent shots is because it doesn't fit as tight?thanks
Exactly, they don't fit as tight and are made with a bottom plastic skirt that expands when fired. Someone recommended that the Powerbelt's base attachment be pre-lubricated with Bore Butter etc... or else it may not separate from the bullet the same way for each and every shot.
Not only can that affect accuracy but so do bore dimensions and how fouled the barrel is etc...
Sabots can have a different impact for the very first shot from a cold, clean barrel too, but testing will determine if that will happen with your rifle or not.
But if the first shot from a clean barrel is consistent, then no matter which bullet is chosen that's what counts the most.
Then which ever bullet is chosen for the follow up shot can be based on easier and quicker reloading in the event that becomes important.
If PowerBelts work best for both 1st & 2nd shots from your rifle then use them with confidence.

The Platinums are supposed to be very effective, but if you have any doubts then use whatever gives the best chance for an accurate first shot & harvest at the most likely distance that you'll be hunting at.
I load my rifle with a sabot at home prior to going hunting so loading difficulty and time aren't an issue.

Last edited by arcticap; November 2, 2009 at 11:50 PM.
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Old November 2, 2009, 03:47 PM   #14
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Another note I`ve found with Powerbelts. Watch the powder charge you use with them. 100gr. should be ok but in my Rem. anything over about 110grns. accuracy failed. Upon retrieving the skirts, I found they were deformed differently then the 90-100grns. I had earlier shot. Again I couldn`t get the Powerbelts to shoot with any consistancy at all using many various charges out of my Encore. On the other hand, a friend of mine can`t shoot Powerbelts out of his Rem. All in the bore size. The dimensions of your bore may be that your rifle likes them. Please post your results if you try.
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Old November 2, 2009, 10:10 PM   #15
lara
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Thanks for your help and I will post results after I get back from a little fishing trip .My reason for doing all this,I've been the best rifle shot in our camp,usually clean one-shot kills.I went almost exclusively to muzzleloading about 10 yrs ago and my shooting went to hell.I almost always shoot just over the back unless I aim for the belly,and that's after sighting in 2" high at a hundred.I got so disgusted after missing 2 nice bucks one year with my Ruger 77/50, I went to the nearest town and bought a TC Triumph so I could use 3 pellets(I lied Shortwave,I thought Encore for some reason)but I still miss except on a rest at the range and its driving me crazy.I can't stand to shoot an animal and not take him out quickly,but I'm gonna keep trying till I get it figured out, cause I truly love muzzleload season.It's the best time of the whole year.
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Old November 3, 2009, 04:06 PM   #16
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He`s only 150 yds out, I can get another crack at him.
lara, another point that may be of interest is with the 245 gr. aerotip powerbelts, loading 100grns. of loose American Pioneer, out of Rem. accuracy/consistency would fade rather quickly after 100 yds. If I were going to use a sabot as my first shot then Powerbelt as backup, I would see what max range I could shoot the powerbelt out to accurately. Your first saboted load will probably be your closest shot so if bucks out to 150 yds by 2nd powerbelt shot .... Also again, I understand your concern with loose powder but IMO you`ll shoot more accurate at the longer distance`s with volume measured loose powder. Load your rifle at the house with a charge. Take your speed loaders,measuring your powder and filling each one of the loaders with the desired amount of powder. No reason to have powder can/flask anywhere near rifle. If your concerned of a hot ember pre-igniting charge on a fast reload the pellets won`t stop that. The pellets are very convenient but IMO aren`t worth the accuracy you give up on longer shots and above all if you accidently crush one you`ll usually not get a full ignition. Thats something you don`t know you`ve done till you pull the hammer on that monster buck you`ve got in your sights.
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Old November 3, 2009, 05:02 PM   #17
lara
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Shortwave-You seem so sure of better accuracy with powder,I'm gonna give it a try,does that mean I need a scale?I'm a little concerned about powder getting past the sabot in the speed loader too.I don't know if you've seen my other thread on cutting a pellet,but I put a 50 grain pellet in my 3-jaw chuck(I have a small lathe)with a little over half sticking out,turned the lathe on slow,took a hacksaw and didn't do much more than score it.The pellet separated beautifully.I've got 6 halves to try.My Ruger calls for 120 grains max and I'm after maximum energy,trajectory and of course accuracy so I'm going to try both the Ruger and the Triumph and see what happens.
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Old November 3, 2009, 05:46 PM   #18
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Lara: I loved your work in Dr. Zhivago.
You were the most beautiful blonde Russian girl in the whole story.
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Old November 3, 2009, 08:04 PM   #19
shortwave
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You were the most beautiful blonde Russian girl in the whole story.
If thats true, I`m booking my flight to Utah ASAP..
Quote:
Does that mean I have to buy a scale?
No, not a weight scale. Black powder substitutes are measured by volume not weight. What you need to buy is a powder measurer. The one I like is brass, measures in ten grain increments and has a small funnel on the end. Cabela`s has them for about $16. Part #HF 21-0255 in the Edition 1, Fall 2005 Master Catalog, pg. #560. I saw your other post about cutting the pellets. Not being smart but you`ve already had an accident and with your halves you made, you can`t be sure of the total grns. of powder your using. It may be worth the 30 mile trip you have to make and purchase the components/powder you need. Also they make various speedloaders designed for a sabot rd. that won`t let the powder get out. Talk to someone at the gunstore,Cabela`s I`m sure they`ll help. Lastly, your Ruger has a max load of 120grns. and you want maximum energy,trajectory and accuracy. Articap said it best, "its what your gun likes best". The ONLY way to find that out is trying different loads. Thats part of the fun of muzzleloading. Settle on a powder and boolit. Start shooting say 90grns. for 3-5 rds. reloading with the same sequence every time. Same swabbing, settling the powder, boolit seating pressure etc. Work up in 5grn. powder increments. You`ll find the 'sweet spot' your rifle likes. It may shoot 120grns. fine it may not. Takes time but once you get it worked out you`ll again be the best shot in your camp. Don`t give up, practice and enjoy.
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Old November 3, 2009, 08:26 PM   #20
lara
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Simon-I joined this forum for friendship and sharing knowledge with people who have a common interest.If the cost of that is ridicule for asking questions, I'm in the wrong place.
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Old November 4, 2009, 10:20 AM   #21
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Simon-I joined this forum for friendship and sharing knowledge with people who have a common interest.If the cost of that is ridicule for asking questions, I'm in the wrong place.
You came to the right place and realize that we are all on a learning curve and that includes communication skills. If you love M/L's as you said, then looking forward to more of your posts.. ....



Be Safe !!!
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Old November 4, 2009, 07:06 PM   #22
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Lara, relax,from judging Simons many previous posts, I`d say he`s just funnin with ya. Nothing serious. He may still be a little upset cause his brother Ken drank up all the beer and got lazy on him at the hog roast he posted about on the Hunt forum. Anyway, what boolit and load are you gonna shoot?
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Old November 5, 2009, 01:34 PM   #23
lara
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I appreciate your kind concerns and I can fun with the best of them if I know thats what it is.my apoligys?You guys have given me a lot to think about. I've still got 3/4 can of powder,probably 10 years old,2 cans of american powder sticks I got on sale 2 yrs.ago and various boolits and sabots. I found my old brass powder measure so I just need to head to the range and start.Right now though,I'm headed to Lake Mead with the wife and pontoon boat for some striper and largemouth fishing.I didn't get to go muzzleloading this year because of some medical problems,I'm still mad about that,but if I can accomplish something at the range,that'll soothe me while I get ready for next year.Thanks again for your helps,I have a better Idea now of what I can and can't do,and I'll be leanin on you again.
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Old November 5, 2009, 05:27 PM   #24
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I won`t be feeling sorry for you while your out there catching stripers and largemouth and the rest of us are working. Catch alot and have a great trip. Don`t be a stranger!
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