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Old April 11, 1999, 02:47 PM   #1
thaddeus
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I am interested in this odd drill and where it came from (why does it have a Spanish name? Why is it named after a President?)
Just to make sure I got it right, the "El" is three targets lined up in a row, you shoot them each one time...one, two three, then on the third you shoot it twice going back...three, two, one. This fires a total of six rounds, two at each target. I would imagine it is for multiple attackers where you want to nail each one right away, then come back to make sure they are stopped with another round.
I could have the drill wrong, so correct me if so.
Also, what are the yardages and dimensions of the drill so I can set it up and practice.
Lastly, what are some good times I can strive for, and accuracy (how tight are the group tolerances to score)?

thanks,
thaddeus
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Old April 11, 1999, 05:00 PM   #2
Prichard
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n

[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited February 07, 2000).]
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Old April 11, 1999, 07:47 PM   #3
motorep
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El Presidente is 3 targets 10 yds downrange, 3 feet apart edge to edge,5 feet at shoulders. Start position is in a 3X3 box,standing back to targets, hands above shoulders ( surrender position ).On the start signal turn, draw, engage each target with two rounds, perform a mandatory reload, and engage each target with two rounds.
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Old April 12, 1999, 06:24 AM   #4
HS
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Probably 'cause more Presidentes get shafted by their own bodyguards than other political figures?

The Prime Minister just doesn't have the same ring to it !

Colonel Jeff Cooper also had a good sense of humour !!

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"The Gun from Down Under !"

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Old April 12, 1999, 06:27 PM   #5
Mikey
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thaddeus,

motorep is right on with the dimensions and proceedure. You asked what kind of time to strive for, and accuracy as well. As luck would have it, a local IDPA club shot El Prez a couple of weeks ago and I still have the score sheet.

The following times and "points down" (points below perfect a-zone hits) were scored at that match. I will try to indicate the skill level (IDPA Ranking - Master, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman) of the shooters so you can make judgements regarding your times.

(added in edit) These times are for TWO runs thru the exercise. Divide by 2 for a single run time.

Expert - 13.41 raw time - 18 points down
Expert - 15.49 raw time - 30 points down
Sharps - 18.68 raw time - 22 points down
Sharps - 21.58 raw time - 06 points down
Marksm - 28.62 raw time - 14 points down
Marksm - 22.13 raw time - 29 points down

These were some of the the high placements out of 27 shooters - the worst time with a semi-auto was 37.17 but accuracy was good at 6 points down from a first year novice who took his time, stayed safe and got his hits.

Hope this gives you a target to shoot for.

Mikey


[This message has been edited by Mikey (edited April 13, 1999).]
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Old April 12, 1999, 08:32 PM   #6
Art Eatman
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To make sure we're on the same wave-length as to the shooting, I learned: Turn and draw; fire two, two, and two; reload; fire two, two, and two. All set up as in motorep's post.

I have seen perfect scores in 5.0 seconds, and without a racegun. This was back in 1981-'82, before there were such things as raceguns. The loads used were usually 5.8 gr. 231 behind a 200-gr SWC, and would just make major cartridge.

My personal best was around 8.0 seconds.
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Old April 12, 1999, 09:22 PM   #7
Mikey
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OOPS! Thanks for the memory jogger, Art...sheesh what a dork I can be. You are correct about the sequence. The only other difference is we started with hands resting naturally at sides instead of surrender.

The times and points listed above are for TWO trips thru El Prez, each timed separately - PLEASE DIVIDE BY TWO!

Sorry if I confused anybody except myself (sheepish grin)
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Old April 14, 1999, 04:58 AM   #8
Skip
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Right now, the race is on the beat 4.0 seconds (all "A"-hits) on El Prez. It's been done several times in practice, but never in competition, although the 4.0 second barrier was missed only by a few hundredths of a second. Stay tuned.
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Old April 15, 1999, 09:16 AM   #9
HS
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Can do it in 3.83 but not quite all A's !
That was on 3 Targets - No reload.
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[This message has been edited by HS (edited April 16, 1999).]
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Old April 16, 1999, 03:13 PM   #10
ClydeVA
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Thaddeus,
Classic El Pesz is like Art & Moto describes.
When I first started this drill my goal was to have 4 holes in each target(IPSC Targets), shooting an Auto the Mark was 10 seconds & 12 seconds with a Revolver.
Now That I have some time under my belt, My best is around High 5 seconds mark. (Not sure with Revolver I would Guess Mid to High 8's)
I have a buddy who shoots Revolver, he has run it in the High 6's or Low 7's.

The Drill you described is used in IDPA as a Tactical Sequence Drill. (Everyone get's first before anyone get's seconds)

Both are good drills but have differrent Meaning to Me. The IPSC El Prez is a doulble Tap drill where speed is paramont. The IDPA El Prez Force Hits and Target acquisition.

Give them both a try see which is faster for you and work on the other one.

Later,
P7's Gotta Love'm
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Old April 17, 1999, 10:36 PM   #11
Art Eatman
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Skip & HS: What sort of guns and loads are being used for these times? Are the pistols pretty close to "carry", or are they "race guns"? Are the loads anywhere near full-power, or are they like those used in the Steel Challenge match?

Regards, Art
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Old April 18, 1999, 08:29 AM   #12
HS
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Art, I use a stock outa the box P-16 with a 180gr @ 1000fps.

I also practice quite a bit

The Open guys with their $4000 guns go a wee bit quicker !

Remember that I'm talking about my 3.83secs on 3 targets with no reload.

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Old April 18, 1999, 08:37 AM   #13
motorep
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Art- I can do 5's - the IPSC way, with the reload- with my P14 or my Commander, major loads, not wimp/steel loads. Kytac should be able to do 4's, are you out there Dave?
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Old April 19, 1999, 06:15 AM   #14
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I cannot find the article that described the 4.0-second barrier for El Prez. (I think it was either Gungames or American Handgunner.) So without refreshing my recollection, I'm willing to bet that they are all using race guns that are practical for carry only on a Star Wars set. However, if you go to Rich's Firearms Page, video section, at: http://www.pla-net.net/~rcomer/video.htm, you can see Rob Leatham shooting an El Prez in around 4 seconds. His gun looks compensated, but without a scope.
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Old April 24, 1999, 02:49 PM   #15
WESHOOT2
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Just did the "El" two weeks ago, took 9.49 seconds, scored 46 out of 60, shot Limited minor, came in 5th of 19 combined Open/Limited.
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Old April 24, 1999, 05:54 PM   #16
Art Eatman
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Shifting emphasis a bit, I discussed shooting such things as El Prez with Chip McCormick. He pointed out that he shoots at a fairly constant rate, and varies the speed of the motion of the pistol to each target.

That is, it's not "Bang, bang; pause; bang, bang; pause", etc. It's a steady beat, "bang, bang, bang, bang", etc. He shoots, moves to the next target, shoots...So his speed is in his movement to acquire the second and third targets. He begins the trigger-pull for the third shot as he moves from the first target.

This is a different style than from something like "Double Trouble" in the Steel Challenge, or single shots on pepper poppers.

Now, Chip was quite intelligent in his selection of his parents' genetics for eye-hand coordination , and I can tell you that learning how to shoot that way is not at all easy. Obviously, however, it works...

Regards, Art
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Old April 25, 1999, 06:02 AM   #17
Skip
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Looking again at the Rob Leatham video (see my post above), he appears to use the "double-tap" method (i.e., there is a distinct change in pace as he re-indexes between each shot pair), although he is so darn fast that the time to acquire the next target is hardly worth mentioning.
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Old May 4, 1999, 10:02 PM   #18
Rob Pincus
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I'm usually not one for "competitions," so to speak, but I want to make sure I am doing this right.

Set up targets as noted above.

hands at surrender postion.

Beep

Two shots target one
two shots target two
two shots target three.

NOW, is this a slide back reload or a slide forward reload? (or does it matter?) Inother words can I start with more than 6 rounds in the gun, seems like that would be faster...

(Reload)

NOW, Do I have to shoot target #3 first, or can I shoot in any order?

Shoot a target twice
shoot next target twice
shoot last target twice

END.. Look at timer.. that is my time/score, right?

If I am using an Alco Target BT-5A, is the "heart" square larger or smaller than the "A-zone" in IDPA? (it is about 6" tall by 4.5" wide). (the "lung box" is about 10" tall by 9 inches wide)


Thanks, Once I understand that I m doing it right, I'll post a score.....

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-Essayons
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Old May 5, 1999, 10:43 PM   #19
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One of the local clubs had a match tonight. One stage was "El Presidente". I shot it with a stock S&W Model 19. Speed loaders in a snapped carrier on my belt. I did it in 11.41 seconds the first time. Sort of fumbled the reload a little. During a reshoot I managed to cut it to 8.48 seconds. My points down on the second pass were -3 for a total time of 9.98. That's just about as good as I can do shooting pure IDPA style. I could maybe shave a couple of seconds if I "IPSCed" the course. But that's not realistic, just gaming it.
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Old May 6, 1999, 05:48 AM   #20
Skip
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Rob-
See http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/cm99-11.pdf for the "official" IPSC version. In that variant, you stand facing uprange (back to target), wrists above shoulders (surrender position). Targets are 30' away, 3' apart. (In Cooper's "original" version, I think the targets were 21' away, but I'm not positive.) On sound, turn and engage all 3 targets with two rounds each in any order, perform a mandatory reload, and re-engage all 3 targets with two rounds each in any order. Time is that between beep and last shot. In the original version, all hits had to be "A's" for the time to count; now IPSC scores it in standard fashion. IDPA people apply their point-down/time penalties.
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Old May 6, 1999, 12:17 PM   #21
Rob Pincus
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Okay, I set up three BT-5A targets 3 feet edge to edge, 10 yards behind the firing line.
I faced my back to the targets, hands on my ear muffs.
When the beep went off I turned while drawing and proceeded to fire two rounds into each target, I performed a slide forward reload and proceeded to fire two more rounds into each target.

I considered the Lung box the "A-zone" it is about 8x8. Anything off the black of the Silohuette I considered a complete miss.


Here are the results for 5 runs:

Fastest: 5.63 4 hits outside the A zone, 1 miss.

"Best" (I think): 6.43 3 hits outside the A zone

Worst: 8.05 2 outside the A zone (first run, I racked the slide needlessly on the reload...duh!)


Other: 7.65 2 ouside A zone
6.85 3 outside the A zone

Equipment:
Glock 23 from a Blade Tec IWB Holster.
Extra mag from a Galco belt clip leather carrier.
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Old May 6, 1999, 09:26 PM   #22
motorep
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Cat- not to fan the IPSC vs. IDPA flames- well, maybe a little bit, but isn't not counting your first run "gaming" it ?
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Old May 7, 1999, 03:18 PM   #23
Skip
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Incidentally, breaking the 4.0-second barrier also requires all "A" hits. In other words, if someone shoots an El Prez in 3.95 seconds but gets even one "C", the time does not count for breaking the barrier. Of course, I'm struggling to break the much more penetrable barrier of 8 seconds.
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Old May 8, 1999, 12:41 AM   #24
Cat
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motorep,
The first run is the one that counted. I was just saying that if everything goes right you can do beter, so don't stop trying.
Some of my best friends shoot a lot of IPSC. I used to. There isn't a darn thing wrong with IPSC as long as you realize they allow a lot more gaming. One of my best friends can't draw a handgun unless he touches his firearm three times to make sure where it is on his belt, tries two or three sight pictures, loosens his mags in the holders, and assumes the exagerated "crouch" before giving the nod. He cannot just walk up and shoot at the beep. Let me say he is a VERY GOOD IPSC shooter. I just don't care to do that anymore.
Also there are about 4-5 USPSA clubs in Ohio and nine IDPA. Four of them within a one hour drive from my house. That gives me more opportunity to shoot.
I support ALL shooting sports. Even those clay bird shooters.
Keep Shooting!
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