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Old October 21, 2009, 07:46 AM   #51
GeauxTide
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I was considering a more powerful companion to my SU-16. I did buy a 308, but it was a 700 VTR.
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Old October 21, 2009, 07:56 AM   #52
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Well, for a SHTF situations, why would you think you need good long range capabilities? Unless you're living in open farmland, where your only SHFT is loss of NASCAR and NFL on TV, your enemies will probably have enough cover to approach you to 100 yards before you can effectively engage them. At this point, the ability to put multiple shots on multiple targets will greatly favor the AR type.
And if you're defending that quaint little Mad Max homestead, your enemies most likely have a 82 mm mortar from the next NG armory to clobber you from past rifle range.
As for the tactics vs. logistics debate, that stems from a time when you were moving half a million soldiers around a map, not when the supply of cold carbonated beverages in remote outposts was outsourced to KBR.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:16 AM   #53
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I alway find these "discussions" interesting... everyone is "so" opinionated...

I do live in the "country"... I do have a Garand & an M1 ( traded off my AR variant quite a while ago... it was worth too much, & lacked the charictor of a wood stocked rifle ) also have an SKS, & one of the new CZ-52's, as well as a couple "other" semi autos...

... However for "business use" I'd be using something wholly different... I'm building a custom bolt rifle with a 1 in 9" twist 22 Hornet chamber on an all weather Ruger 77 - 22 Hornet... the rotary mags only hold 5 rounds, but are easily changed, & I'm setting up the rifle for custom 5 round stripper clips ( I've gotten very proficient with the old SKS, after I ditched the high cap mags & put the fatory 10 round fixed box back on, using stripper clips )...

I got a real eye opener, when I loaded up 50 rounds of 405 grain 45-70 for my Guide Gun, when I thought about how did soldiers & frontier people carry around ammo that heavy... it's easy to understand why the switch to 223, if you look at carrying enough firepower, & why the 5.7 X 28 will likely survive, if bullets can be designed to still do the damage needed with 1/2 the weight of a 223 bullet, & a fraction of what the 308 bullets weigh, coupled with physically smaller cases & lighter powder charges...

my fast twist Hornet expiriments have been very interesting, I find I can duplicate the 5.7 X 28 with an easier to reload cartridge & to some extent the 223 with a much more "efficient" cartridge, loaded with both light weight bullets, or just as easiy shoot spitzer BT solids, or hollow points, as well as several "hunting" bullets designed for bigger game than varmints... IMO, for the type of "business" you are talking about, short term, just about any commercial or milsurp semi auto, that you are proficient with, & that is reliable with the ammo available will cover the bases... but long term sustained "business" ( for me ) is getting maximum efficiency for the weight carried, being able to reload the brass ( means not thowing those valuable cases all over, & a revolver or bolt action rifle does a better job of allowing you to keep the brass )... I suspect there may be times ( & especially if you needed to take care of "business" in inner city, or during a "bug out" ) that you could really use that semi auto... ( but I'm already "bugged out" ), however bear in mind, that you'll need to carry ammo, & the more you may need to shoot, the more you'll need... & maybe a really long durations worth... size & weight will be a big factor when you have other things to carry

so of the rifles "you" are talking about, the AR type weapon is IMO, better suited to your "business" ( everyones circumstances will likely be different )
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Old October 21, 2009, 10:02 AM   #54
SR420
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your enemies will probably have enough cover to approach you to 100 yards before you can effectively engage them.
If all you have is an AR then I agree, but if you have an M14 you can effectively
turn your enemies cover into concealment and stop them as they approach.
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Old October 21, 2009, 02:43 PM   #55
pvt.Long
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If you want training join the marines they spend more quality time with the rifles then the army. Personaly haveing an old army ranger in the family has trained me on the m14 well. Able to field strip it and clean it at 6. Just recently bought my s&W m&p15.To me the m16 famaly is still a mate matel. I prefer the m14 accurate to futher range bigger bullet and looser tolerences. easy to clear a jam.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:56 PM   #56
shennesy
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just got an ar15 .223

hey my name is scott hennesy. im new to this site. i just got a dpms flat top .223 ar15. i need some tips on how to sight in my iron sights.
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Old October 22, 2009, 07:38 AM   #57
Bartholomew Roberts
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If all you have is an AR then I agree, but if you have an M14 you can effectively
turn your enemies cover into concealment and stop them as they approach.
Assuming you can acquire and identify them before they reach that 100m mark and further assuming that they take cover behind something that will stop 5.56; but won't stop 7.62x51.

Take a look around your neighborhood and it should be pretty clear whether or not either of those is a feasible assumption.

Of course all of this presupposes the unlikely possibility that you can justifiably take shots at greater than 100m with no negative ramifications.
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Old October 22, 2009, 07:49 AM   #58
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Of course all of this presupposes the unlikely possibility that you can justifiably take shots at greater than 100m with no negative ramifications.
Do you apply this same presupposition to the little 5.56?
Do all negative ramifications evaporate inside 100m?
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Old October 22, 2009, 08:49 AM   #59
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He's probably referring to the fact that a lot of S must have hit a very big F to be able to shoot at anything that moves 100 yards out without having to worry about negative repercussions from society.
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Old October 22, 2009, 09:03 AM   #60
Bartholomew Roberts
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mapsjanhere seems to have understood my point correctly.
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Old October 22, 2009, 09:45 AM   #61
SR420
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mapsjanhere He's probably referring to the fact that a lot of S must have hit a very big F to be able to shoot at anything that moves 100 yards out without having to worry about negative repercussions from society.
Yeah, I'm sure the OP was thinking the same.
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Old October 22, 2009, 10:32 AM   #62
tirod
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I have been a proponent of the .308 for a long time. When it came time to actually put money down, I bought a modern battle rifle - the HK91. That was in the '70's. I don't doubt the ability of a decent shooter to use one in defense of home, or out hunting. It knocks down game.

It's sized accordingly. Having shot the M1A, I can't say it improved on the negatives. .30 cal rifles are long, heavy, have signficant recoil, and are relatively more expensive to shoot, reload, and use. You can't carry as much ammunition, and the magazines are sized accordingly. Older designs dating from the .30's aren't efficient in packaging the components or offering inhererent accuracy - primarily because the receiver holds the barrel and bolt locking lugs. That makes them heavier regardless of the caliber.

The AR avoids that, as it is much more efficiently designed. The question is whether to stick with 5.56 because of doubts about it's power. I agree.

Therefore, keep the AR, fit it with a different caliber upper for hunting and home defense - which should be a cheaper solution. You also train on the same platform with cheap 5.56, or even a .22 conversion. Training will be more effective more quickly than dividing time between two different platforms.

The AR is more user friendly, offers better utility in real combat, and still reaches out effectively to the actual max range most combat takes place in urban and wooded situations, about 400 yards - what the German General Staff discovered in WWII. The US Army hasn't disputed those findings yet.

I sold my HK91, and I building an AR in 6.8SPC. A time proven platform in use over decades, and a caliber designed by battle veterans for shooters by marksmen - Special Forces and the AMU - to improve power, effectiveness, and still fit the envelope of the AR. It's the best of both.
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Old October 22, 2009, 10:42 AM   #63
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I just know, even if the ShtF so no one cares about the dead bodies, some guy will come by, pull a BATF ID and ask if I had a tax stamp for that BAR...
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Old October 22, 2009, 10:49 AM   #64
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If you want a new rifle then go ahead and buy one. The AR is quite fine for your purposes. As others have stated if you're using M855 Ball ammo, you're good out to around 600 meters with even you're irons (Provided you know how to zero your weapon correctly). You can even engage targets far out with 55gr M193 (doing even better if you have a 1 in 9 twist, which your RRA might have).
I know al the ARs and M-16s I have shot have been more accurate then me, with normal issue and surplus ammo. (and no, i'm not a terrible shot, although i'm far from the best).
If you think you need the extra power then buy the .308, but you'll have a heavier gun, more expensive ammo, and if you don't need it then why bother. Except the fact that they are fun!
It seems to me that a good AR will do everything you need it to. and Rock River ARs are pretty decent so I would work on you're reliability issues. It's a fussy platform so make sure you are cleaning it properly and make sure you hit the M-16 lube points.....she likes to run wet, just google the lube points. This could be your issue right there. Try out Pmags too.

If you want a new toy then get it.....but I can't tell you that you need it.
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