Strategies to avoid being shot in error.

ZeSpectre · October 10, 2009, 10:27 AM

Related to this thread: Phoenix homeowner shot by police while holding burglar at gunpoint

I would like to make the topic of this thread very clear.

THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS THINGS WE MIGHT DO TO AVOID BEING MISTAKEN FOR THE BAD-GUY.

IF THIS THREAD VEERS INTO ATTITUDE, SNIDE COMMENTS, COP BASHING OR DISCUSSIONS ABOUT COVER-UPS I WILL ASK THE MODS TO LOCK IT SO LET'S STAY ON TOPIC AND TRY TO CREATE SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE PLEASE.

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Video: Cop accidentally shoots man
A homeowner holding an intruder at gunpoint is accidentally shot six times by a cop. Source: CNN Added On October 9, 2009

More on the story here.

Family Suing After Phoenix Cop Shoots Homeowner Instead of Intruder

Quote:

By SARAH NETTER

Oct. 6, 2009—

When Tony Arambula managed to corner an armed intruder in his son's bedroom he expected police to come to his aid.

Instead, a Phoenix police officer confused Arambula for the intruder and shot him six times before realizing his mistake, a moment captured on the 911 call with a simple "F**k."

Even after realizing their mistake, Arambula said he was treated roughly, being dragged out of the house and transported briefly on the hood of a police car.

Now Arambula, 35, who survived but faces a lifetime of pain, is suing the city of Phoenix and the officers who responded to his house that night.

(please see link for full article)

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So what do we do? Maybe get a jacket like this that says "HOMEOWNER" on it?

Don't be afraid to brainstorm folks, Let's have some ideas, even silly ones.

**Brian Pfleuger** · October 10, 2009, 10:35 AM

Well, the most obvious thing that comes to mind from this story is.... don't corner an armed intruder.

One more reason why retreating and calling 911 is a better idea. Obviously, there are times when going through the house might be necessary. The rest of the time, hunker up and wait.

Once you're in this situation, the only thing you can do is make every effort to be sure that the dispatcher and responding officers know who is the good guy and who is not. Clear, possibly repeated, descriptions to the dispatcher and communication with the responding officers is the best bet.

For instance, you know that the officer has arrived, you could start yelling "Officer! We are upstairs, 1st room on the left! I am the homeowner! I am armed! The intruder is backed into a corner, he has a knife! Don't shoot!"

I don't think that "labeling yourself" is going to do any good at all. No officer will accept a jacket that says "Homeowner" as proof of anything, and they certainly should not.

zxcvbob · October 10, 2009, 10:41 AM

Assuming you get the upper hand, you either kill [incapacitate might be a better word] an armed intruder, or you let him go. Holding him until the police get there is an invitation to get shot. You don't call the cops until it's over.

38super · October 10, 2009, 10:48 AM

Not enough detail to pass comment. I am glad that Tony survived though.

Skans · October 10, 2009, 10:54 AM

Boy, if you're holding an armed intruder at gunpoint, I guess you must think you're pretty good at playing cop. I mean, a man breaks into your home. Armed. Looking to kill you and your family. And, the first chance he gets, if you slip up, you're going to be a dead man. Shoot the armed intruder, put the gun down. Then call the cops.

ZeSpectre · October 10, 2009, 11:04 AM

Skans, this part I'll take as a brainstorming idea.

Quote:

Shoot the armed intruder, put the gun down. Then call the cops.

This part tells me you didn't read the first post very carefully.

Quote:

Boy, if you're holding an armed intruder at gunpoint, I guess you must think you're pretty good at playing cop.

So far...

-Wear a "HOMEOWNER" jacket
-"Fort up" (avoid confrontation and secure yourself)
-Let the criminal go
-Render the criminal incapable of being a threat (so that you aren't holding them at gunpoint)
-Don't call the cops until "after".

Yeah, some of it may sound silly but we're BRAINSTORMING here so all ideas are fair game. It's astounding the number of silly brainstorming ideas that lead to good, solid, actionable tactics.

Latex Ducky · October 10, 2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

-Render the criminal incapable of being a threat (so that you aren't holding them at gunpoint)

If you could do that without shooting them, e.g. keep duck tape handy, that might be a good option

**Glenn E. Meyer** · October 10, 2009, 11:44 AM

Rendering him or her incapable?

Does that imply shooting a surrendered person or someone who is not a immediate threat?

Shoot and put down the gun - implies the other is out of the fight - nope.

If this thread heads for killing as a prophylactic method without necessity - it is not in our acceptable discussion range.

jtemple · October 10, 2009, 11:44 AM

If someone is in my house uninvited, you can bet your butt they're getting shot. I have no interest in trying to talk them down when lives are at stake.

ZeSpectre · October 10, 2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

If someone is in my house uninvited, you can bet your butt they're getting shot. I have no interest in trying to talk them down when lives are at stake.

Again this is not the quesiton.
The question is how we, as the good guys, can avoid being shot in a case for mistaken identity.

However it appears that people are incapable of reading or staying on topic so I'm going to ask the mods to close this one.

ATW525 · October 10, 2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Assuming you get the upper hand, you either kill [incapacitate might be a better word] an armed intruder, or you let him go. Holding him until the police get there is an invitation to get shot. You don't call the cops until it's over.

+1

Also, unless you seriously intend to shoot somebody for trying to leave your house, holding them at gunpoint is at best a bluff. I don't want to make any threats that I'm 100% ready to follow through on.

jtemple · October 10, 2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Again this is not the quesiton.
The question is how we, as the good guys, can avoid being shot in a case for mistaken identity.

However it appears that people are incapable of reading or staying on topic so I'm going to ask the mods to close this one.

Before you get all huffy, let me elaborate. Once the threat is neutralized, there is no need for me to remain armed. I will holster my weapon and ensure I do not present any threat to the officers when they arrive. Holding a BG at gunpoint does not make that a possibility. I'm not going to risk my life for the sake of the BG.

**Glenn E. Meyer** · October 10, 2009, 11:54 AM

On request of the OP and the veer towards "I'm a killer shot"

Closed

October 10, 2009, 10:35 AM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,474	Well, the most obvious thing that comes to mind from this story is.... don't corner an armed intruder. One more reason why retreating and calling 911 is a better idea. Obviously, there are times when going through the house might be necessary. The rest of the time, hunker up and wait. Once you're in this situation, the only thing you can do is make every effort to be sure that the dispatcher and responding officers know who is the good guy and who is not. Clear, possibly repeated, descriptions to the dispatcher and communication with the responding officers is the best bet. For instance, you know that the officer has arrived, you could start yelling "Officer! We are upstairs, 1st room on the left! I am the homeowner! I am armed! The intruder is backed into a corner, he has a knife! Don't shoot!" I don't think that "labeling yourself" is going to do any good at all. No officer will accept a jacket that says "Homeowner" as proof of anything, and they certainly should not. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

October 10, 2009, 10:41 AM	#3
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 3,656	Assuming you get the upper hand, you either kill [incapacitate might be a better word] an armed intruder, or you let him go. Holding him until the police get there is an invitation to get shot. You don't call the cops until it's over. __________________ "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"

October 10, 2009, 11:44 AM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 13,149	Rendering him or her incapable? Does that imply shooting a surrendered person or someone who is not a immediate threat? Shoot and put down the gun - implies the other is out of the fight - nope. If this thread heads for killing as a prophylactic method without necessity - it is not in our acceptable discussion range. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm Being an Academic Shooter http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm Being an Active Shooter

October 10, 2009, 11:54 AM	#13
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 13,149	On request of the OP and the veer towards "I'm a killer shot" Closed __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm Being an Academic Shooter http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm Being an Active Shooter

October 10, 2009, 10:48 AM	#4
38super Junior member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Posts: 46	Not enough detail to pass comment. I am glad that Tony survived though.

October 10, 2009, 10:54 AM	#5
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 6,249	Boy, if you're holding an armed intruder at gunpoint, I guess you must think you're pretty good at playing cop. I mean, a man breaks into your home. Armed. Looking to kill you and your family. And, the first chance he gets, if you slip up, you're going to be a dead man. Shoot the armed intruder, put the gun down. Then call the cops.

October 10, 2009, 11:44 AM	#9
jtemple Junior Member Join Date: October 30, 2008 Posts: 14	If someone is in my house uninvited, you can bet your butt they're getting shot. I have no interest in trying to talk them down when lives are at stake.