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Old October 5, 2009, 09:51 AM   #1
NightSight
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Script for Shooting Aftermath

Does anyone have a script at home in case of a break in; something that you can read to the 911 dispatcher?? What about a script for the aftermath of a shooting either in your home on away from your home?? I have read in various places that it is wise to have something very generic written down because in a high stress situation, especially the aftermath of a shooting, you might say things that could wreak havoc later in your defense. If you do have a script could you please share the main points with us?? Thanks in advance.
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Old October 5, 2009, 09:59 AM   #2
Sefner
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"I feared for my life and want to talk to a lawyer"?

That's not it, but this is relevant to my interests.
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Old October 5, 2009, 10:16 AM   #3
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The problem is that we all see ourselves as the "Good Guy" in this situation. So, being good guys, we want to cooperate and help the police out as much as possible. It's sort of counter-intuitive for us to clam up and repeat - "I'll only discuss this with my lawyer present" to an officer that we placed the 911 call to.
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Old October 5, 2009, 10:21 AM   #4
MLeake
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I don't know that I'd script an Aftermath Report

But as far as info for a 911 call, one could modify a standard, military style report.

1. Location.
2. Identification.
3. Nature of emergency - IE prowler, break-in, shots fired.
4. Number and disposition of people in the home (residents and guests).
5. Number and disposition of bad guys - if known.
6. Armament of bad guys - if known.
7. Additional factors
A. Are you armed? (So police don't shoot first if they see an armed man)
B. Description of self? (So police can quickly identify if armed person is NOT you)
C. Animals in the house? (Might or might not protect your pit bull - if it lunges at an officer, it's probably getting shot; rounding up family, friends, and pets to a safe room is the best bet all around)
D. Number of entrances to the house? (Good for police to know)
8. STAY ON THE PHONE (or have one of your family members or friends stay on the phone)

Note1: Even when you do everything right, there is a possibility that if you are holding a weapon when police arrive, that you could be shot. Unless you are actively covering a BG, when the police arrive, holster or put down any weapons. Not a knock on the police, but it has happened from time to time.

Note2: Referencing Note1, this is one more reason why holing up in a specified safe room is a much better idea than searching the house, especially once 911 has been called.
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Old October 5, 2009, 10:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
this is one more reason why holing up in a specified safe room is a much better idea than searching the house, especially once 911 has been called.
By retreating to a safe-room in your house, aren't you basically telling the BG to "take whatever you want......come back for more.....because I'll be in my safe room and won't come out until you are long gone"?

Sorry, I just can't do that. And, before anyone tells me how I should value my life more than I value my stuff, it's not about that. It's about living with yourself, knowing you let someone have complete access to your house, while you were there, without trying to defend your homestead. It's about giving up your freedom and your sense of self-preservation in excange for safety.
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Old October 5, 2009, 10:58 AM   #6
Mello2u
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Quote:
NightSight

Script for Shooting Aftermath
You raise an interesting predicament. You limit it to the communication to a 911 operator. I think MLeake has thoroughly address your supposition.

To go beyond your fact pattern, what to do and say in a shooting aftermath after the scene is secured by the police and when the police start to question you, limit what you say to identifying yourself and that you feared for your life. Then say that you are upset, don't fell up to giving a statement, and would like to consult with your attorney.
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Old October 5, 2009, 11:01 AM   #7
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Skans...

.... you go for it, big fella.

Just realize that the military teaches sentries to communicate first, before moving in to investigate mysterious persons. The warning to the JOC is considered more crucial than a one-on-x engagement, in case the engagement kills the sentry.

Also realize that cops usually wait for backup before moving in.

Cops and military sentries have body armor and training, plus radios and backup.

But you go right ahead and search...

Note: In the house, it would be hold up and let the person know that the homeowners were armed, and 911 had been called. I suspect most would leave. If not, there's a 12ga in the bedroom and an AR in the safe, and the intruders would be in for a very bad time if they pressed their luck.

The only time I'd consider searching would be if I heard something going on with the horses. May sound hypocritical, but there are risks I'll assume for living things that I would not assume for furniture or furnishings. Even then, I'd only go outside after establishing the significant other with a phone, a shotgun, and a handgun of her choice. And then I'd have cover during the approach to the open space around the barn, and a rifle in hand - plus a cell phone and headset, for staying in contact with 911.

And I'd make very sure the dispatcher relayed the fact that the homeowner was outside with a rifle, and provided responding officers with a description (to include the location of the hide site I was using to monitor the barn).

Last edited by MLeake; October 5, 2009 at 11:22 AM.
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Old October 5, 2009, 11:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
It [going to a safe room] 's about giving up your freedom and your sense of self-preservation in excange for safety.
???

What is the value of a "sense of self preservation" if you are not safe?

How can you be all that free if you are rendered immobile by a bullet?

The idea of the safe room is safety. Traipsing around your house with a gun in your hand may make you feel like the good guy in the movies (unless and until you get shot), but it exposes you to ambush, perhaps from more than one direction. The perp has the upper hand--he has no scruples about identifying his target before firing, but you have a legal obligation to do so.

And there's the risk of being shot accidentally by first responders.

Let the threat come to you. If you have to shoot do so, but make sure you can see your target.

I think all relevant training supports this philosophy--perhaps you should look into getting some training.
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Old October 5, 2009, 12:12 PM   #9
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Perp in my house endangering MY family, stealing MY things...

This is MY 911 call.

(911) 911 what is the nature of your emergency?

(Me) My house was being burglarized and I was attacked, and then for no reason I can ascertain other than remorse for his foul crime, the Burglar shot himself in the face 7 times with a Colt SAA .45.... Please send help...?



911 only get's the cops to show up after you or your family or the perp are dead or dying or all your stuff is gone...

Perp's doing a grab and go or a night time home burglary generally don't carry gun's (prevents you from carrying more stuff) and you can, and likely will, simply scare them away by being aware of the situation and awake when it starts... Neither party will willingly stick around if they think they're going to get shot...

Crank heads or Crack head situations are very different from a normal burglary, they are so unpredictable that defending yourself is never really something you can prepare fully for.
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Old October 5, 2009, 12:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
By retreating to a safe-room in your house, aren't you basically telling the BG to "take whatever you want....Sorry, I just can't do that...
Nonetheless it is the tactically correct thing to do (as long as all authorized occupants of the house are accounted for and in the safe room). Your aversion to doing so doesn't change the simple facts that --
  1. If you go looking, and there is indeed a BG there, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. Or there maybe more than one BG, one of whom can get to your family while you're occupied with the other one.
  2. When (whether you called them or they were called by a neighbor who may have also seen or heard something) the police respond, they don't know who you are. You are just someone with a weapon.

Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first six of these annual events, only one competitor, in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.

So if you go out looking, it is most likely that you will lose. If you lose, you leave your family unprotected and have let them down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mello2u
...what to do and say in a shooting aftermath after the scene is secured by the police and when the police start to question you, limit what you say to identifying yourself and that you feared for your life. Then say that you are upset, don't fell up to giving a statement, and would like to consult with your attorney....
That can do. And while it is better to say nothing than say the wrong thing, clamming up is what bad guys do. You want to immediately identify yourself as the good guy and the victim.

Personally, I'll go along with what Massad Ayoob recommends and has taught me in his LFI-I class and be prepared to say the following:

1. That person attacked me.
2. I will sign a complaint.
3. There is evidence (pointing to evidence).
4. There are witnesses (pointing to witnesses).
5. I won't say anything more now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I've talked with my lawyer.

That identifies me as the victim, helps assure that evidence and witnesses aren't overlooked and invokes my right to thereafter remain silent.
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Old October 5, 2009, 01:13 PM   #11
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Fiddletown, you make a very good case for staying put. However, right or wrong, I am convinced that I can clear my house with a reasonable chance of staying safe. My house has some ambient light, there are ways for me to know what is in certain rooms, and my house is laid out in such a manner that, even while I'm clearing my home, there is no way for a BG to get passed me. Certain doors always remain shut and make enough noise to wake me up if someone moves them. I can tell which doors have moved by the sound and placement of them, so I can narrow down where someone might be in the event of a breakin.

Now, I have no intention of rushing into a room where I suspect a BG might be hiding....and I will stop the search for a period of time laying in wait. I have done this several times, fortunately no BG - just something else causing noises (usually peacocks). So, I do have an idea of what I can and cannot do in my own home. I suspect that anyone else who has gone through this drill does too.
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Old October 5, 2009, 01:35 PM   #12
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"I shot to stop his felonious assault. I need to speak to an attorney."
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Old October 5, 2009, 01:40 PM   #13
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
...However, right or wrong, I am convinced that I can clear my house with a reasonable chance of staying safe...
Maybe. But why not give it a try? Some night get a friend or two to play the "bad guy" and then you go looking. Try it several times -- with everyone unarmed, of course. See how you make out and let us know. You may be surprised.

I know that I've gone through our house, in daylight, looking for my wife, and she's surprised me. How many others have had similar experiences?
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Old October 5, 2009, 01:48 PM   #14
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You know...

... house searches are why military and police units have K-9's.

Dogs are much better at searching than we are. If your mindset demands that you search, maybe you should invest in a schutzhund trained shepherd or malinois. Seems to me the K-9 is much less likely to be ambushed than a human would be.

However, the dogs aren't infallible. This K-9 team was ambushed and killed in Polk County, FL three years ago, while responding to the shooting of an officer.

http://www.policek9.com/html/matt_williams.html

Granted, this happened in the woods, not in a house, but it's a reminder that trained professionals, complete with body armor and trained dog, can still lose.
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Old October 5, 2009, 01:56 PM   #15
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Never had to clear my house thinking I had a real BG problem, but in practice clearings I notice all kinds of things that tell me I shouldn't have moved out of my bedroom. For instance, as soon as I cleared my end of the house and moved into the den there were plenty of dangers. My front porch goes across the whole house, BG's could be behind the windows or front door aiming as I enter from my bedroom, the entrance to kitchen is large but in aiming that way, I could easily shoot towards the kid's rooms. My plan is wife on 911 in corner of saferoom, me watching livingroom from saftey of my room w/ the 12 ga. They can't get to my kids or to my wife without me seeing them first.
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Old October 5, 2009, 01:57 PM   #16
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Thanks so far for the good input. I would like to avoid this turning into a stay put or go seach thread. We've all been down that road and discussed it. Please stick to providing information on what you would say in the aftermath of a shooting and whether the idea of a script makes sense. Thanks guys.
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Old October 5, 2009, 02:01 PM   #17
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If someone is breaking into my house, the last thing I'm worried about is 911. First thing is grab my 1911, then worry about 911.

This is life. No scripts.

One thing I learned the easy way is to tell the operator to have the cop blip the siren when they arrive.
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Old October 5, 2009, 02:04 PM   #18
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NightSight

While I don't mean to exacerbate thread veer, I will point out that the decision to search or not will directly impact the information you need to provide to 911, and will also impact your testimony after the fact.

So, while we can stop discussing search tactics, that shouldn't kill discussion over what info to relay in the event the decision is made to search. This also includes the means of communication that might be used by the searcher.
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Old October 5, 2009, 02:13 PM   #19
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MLeake - Point well taken. I value the input.
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Old October 5, 2009, 02:22 PM   #20
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Anybody here ever uttered these words to the 911 operator "Suspect present.."?

I have. it was about 4:30 AM, and you could hear patrol cars go to wide-open throttle for about a 1-mile radius. Five cars were there in about 1 minute.

Here's an exercise for the "I want to search" crowd. Go find your local paintball field, and go bunkering. Try to clear every structure on the field. Let us know how it went.

Stay put, call the cops, and give them a brief, accurate description of what they're facing.
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Old October 5, 2009, 02:24 PM   #21
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What world do we live in where where people coming to your house at night to burglarize things are doing it like Nato Commando Units when infiltrating house to house searches for terrorists?

1: If you notice a break in, it's because the perp is a dumb criminal, 90% of your home break in's, the criminals are doing it because they think you are NOT home, 99% of those 90% are stupid.

2: If you do NOT notice the break in, (One would not likely notice MI6 or the Mossad breaking into your home at night), then there is nothing you can do about it, and you wake up to find your stuff missing or gone through etc... Therefore, there is no reason to clear the home like you were Keifer Sutherland on 24.

What I'm saying is, Criminals dumb enough to wake you will be easily noticeable as to their whereabouts and possible numbers. But those same perps, being retarded to begin with will not know your number nor if you're armed or not. How many Intelligent criminals actually break into a home when they know the owner is there? It's easier to tell if there's an occupant than it is to tell if the occupant is armed....
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Old October 5, 2009, 03:03 PM   #22
MLeake
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koolminx....

... google "home invasion robbery."

Many of these happen to drug dealers, but not all. Last week, and 80 year old man was robbed and beaten.

http://www.wfsb.com/news/21184454/detail.html

Sheriff's deputies have indicated to my best friend up near Knoxville, TN, that these crimes are on the rise up there. They've also been on the rise in the Atlanta and Orlando areas.

Are the odds high that this will happen to any one individual? No.

Are the odds of any given burglary devolving into this sort of situation high enough that one should treat it as a real possibility? I think so, but maybe that's just me.
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Old October 5, 2009, 03:51 PM   #23
Tom Servo
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Quote:
Let the threat come to you. If you have to shoot do so, but make sure you can see your target.
Exactly. A firearm is a means to help me keep control of my circumstances. The operative word is "control."

If I do room-to-room searches following a noise, I'm having to keep constant 360° situational awareness. That's hard to do when I'm still rubbing the eye boogers out from just waking up

It's much easier to cover a single door with only one axis of potential fire. Like anything, of course, this depends on how and when the situation presents itself.

Now, back to the original topic. If I'm the one calling 911, then I'm still standing, and the threat has abated. The 911 call is not the time for me to make my case for self-defense. I need to tell the dispatcher what the officers can expect when they arrive.

For example:

"There has been a shooting at 123 Happy Flower Court. I am the homeowner. I am uninjured, but [x] individuals have suffered wounds and are in need of medical attention. The situation is under control, and there is no threat to first responders. Please have the officers announce themselves audibly, and I will be waiting in the living room to the right of the front door."

Be wary of adrenaline, as you will be on the verge of panic. Resist the urge to tell anything not strictly relevant to the 911 dispatcher, as there's a good possibility those recordings will be heard in court.

//

Just read MLeake's link, and yow!

Quote:
Needs' nose was broken and his pickup truck, a computer and credit cards were taken.

Four days later, Needs was shot in the hand during a self-defense lesson. A 9 mm pistol went off as one of his sons was loading it.
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Old October 5, 2009, 04:11 PM   #24
Yankee Traveler
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

My first try with a link...I hope it works...
An interesting take on what to say to cops, and how they are trained to turn misconstrue everything. For those in LE, there is a part 2 link from a LE officer that disputes the first part. I take both with a grain of salt and hope that I never have to be judged fro defending my family/self.

FWIW, someone else posted this a few months ago and I saved the link. I do not have time to search youtube and others for this stuff, My boss would kill me. I can only regurgitate.

Credit where it is due...
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Old October 5, 2009, 07:19 PM   #25
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Script of a 911 call...

Modified to suit my locale (and humor)..

"Military Police."

"Hey, this is (name) at (address). Get your butts across the street, somebody's broken into my house! I'll be the completely naked guy holding a gun, I'm pretty sure whoever broke in is in the living room and he probably has clothes on. I'll be in the master bedroom with my wife, kids and dog. Break the door down if you need to, it ain't mine anyway. Announce yourselves before coming in the master bedroom door, I'd hate to shoot one of you fellas."

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