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Old September 24, 2009, 02:20 PM   #26
BigJimP
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Yes, I'm telling you the used Browning Citori lineup of guns retains its value as well, if not better, than Beretta in most areas of the country - especially in their entry level models - Browning Citori Lightning or Beretta white onyx. I think you'll see that especially as they get to 10 or 15 years old - but there isn't more than a few hundred dollars between them typically.

List price on Browning White Lightning is $ 2,029 / list price on Beretta is $ 1,975.

Why you're seeing more Beretta's than Browning's as used guns - who knows. They might have made the club a better deal ...

I didn't say a Beretta will fail after a few thousand shells - in my opinion, even though you are looking at entry level models, they've both 100,000 shell guns. But I will tell you that if the Browning fits you ( so it hits where you look ) then the Beretta will not probably fit you. They are different in the amount of drop at comb, heel, etc.

Buy the gun that fits you the best / not who made it - either a Beretta or a Browning Citori will hold up if you take care of it. But the Browning Japanese made Citori certainly is not an inferior gun to anything Beretta makes - on the entry level or the higher end of either mfg's lineup at $ 5,000 plus ...
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Old September 24, 2009, 02:54 PM   #27
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Quote:
tell me why I'd consider a New Japanese Citori over a New Beretta in the same general price range
Several reasons why I would consider a Citori over a Beretta:
* Berettas have no hinge pin, the hinge is in the side of the receiver. These thin areas wear faster than a sold steel hinge pin and cannot be rebuilt.
* Berettas have very small locking pins that fit into holes in the rear of the breechblock. Holes tend to wear oval over time, making lockup not as tight. Pins wear faster than a 1" wide solid steel lug.
* Berettas are lighter and thinner through the receiver. While this does make them handle nicely and swing faster, it also increses felt recoil and makes it easier to stop your swing. Either of these will eventually cause you to start missing.

None of this means Berettas are not a good gun, they're just not as strong as a Citori.

Quote:
Why is it that most rentals tend to be Beretta White Onyxes (at least from my observation) if these guns shake apart after a couple thousand rounds?
Rental guns are usually the cheapest good guns available. While there are cheaper O/U shotguns, they are not very good. And while there are better O/U shotguns available, they are not cheap. A few hundred dollars may not make much of a difference to you or me, multiply it times several dozen guns, and it adds up. While many club guns do get shot a lot, most do not. Serious shooters will buy their own shotguns, and many people bring their field guns for a pre-season warm-up session at the trap or skeet range.

Berettas are not a bad shotgun by any stretch of the imagination. They are just not as good as a Browning Citori.
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Old September 24, 2009, 03:31 PM   #28
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Berettas are neither better nor worse than Brownings - just different. ALL guns have wear points and all will require servicing at some time. Both basic models of Beretta and Browning should be good for about 85,000 or so before you might need some attention to the lock up or springs. The stock dimensions tend to be different. Typically, if one fits you well, the other brand will not. Not a good or bad thing, just different
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Old September 25, 2009, 07:48 AM   #29
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I did a little checking and found some good information on the Beretta Onyx:
__________________________________________________________

Mechanically, these models (Onyx and Whitewing) provide the same strength, reliability and durability as the more expensive engraved models (Berettas). The box-lock receivers are machined from solid-steel forgings. Conical locking lugs are located at the back of the mono-block, providing a strong lock up. The locking lugs are designed to "wear-in" to maintain a tight lock-up over the firing of thousands of rounds.

This tight fit can be maintained indefinitely. The opening lever is normally offset a bit to the right. When parts wear is such that the lever is centered, it's time to replace the hinge pins and locking lugs. Beretta currently charges less than $200 for the job, which essentially gives the shooter a new gun. Frankly this is of only passing concern to most shooters. Typically it takes 70,000 to 75,000 rounds before these parts need replacing. Some competitive shooters shoot this many rounds in a few years. For the average hunter who might shoot 20 boxes of ammunition annually, we're talking 140 to 150 years of service before the inexpensive update is required.

Beretta barrels are cold hammer-forged of high-grade steel. Because of the quality of the steel and the forging process, Beretta barrels can be thinner and therefore lighter than some competitive brands. Barrels are laser-fused to the mono-block and will never separate. Chrome-lined barrels and chambers make cleaning easy and help prevent plastic buildup and corrosion.
_________________________________________________________________
I don't know how the Citori is constructed, but it seems like the Berettas are made to be rebuilt, eventhough it may take 75,000 to need this, and last multiple lifetimes of hard use.
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Old September 25, 2009, 12:39 PM   #30
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From a product review by Chuck Hawks ...

His opinion of the Browning Citori field guns:

All Citori actions are hand fitted and come standard with selective hammer ejectors and a single selective single trigger. Like the Superposed, the barrels of Citori shotguns pivot on a full-length hinge pin that can be replaced should it ever wear. The chambers are chrome-plated to resist wear and corrosion. The wood is carefully hand fitted to the metal.

Also like the Superposed, the barrels are locked closed by means of a traditional underlug and bolt. The locking bolt is tapered, as is the locking lug recess. This means that as wear occurs over the years the action stays tight.

The barrels are struck full length as with traditional high quality doubles. The barrels are fitted with Browning's Invector Plus choke tubes.

models are distinguished by their rounded semi-pistol grip buttstock and slender, rounded forend. The comb is fluted and the checkering pattern generous on both the grip and forend. To me, the Lighting is the definition of how an O/U shotgun should look.

The Citori swings a little smoother and kicks a little less than many similar O/U guns because it weighs a little more, which is a good thing. The Citori will break clays and kill birds with the best of them if it fits the shooter and the shooter knows how to get the job done. In summation I can only say that I regard the Browning Citori to be an excellent O/U shotgun and a good value.

My note - barrels are all chromed / today they are back bored / have extended forcing cones, etc on many models.

-------------------------
Its my opinion, the barrel to receiver connection on the Citori is stronger than the Beretta / and to me, since they are heavier its a plus - but in terms of a long term gun / good value for your money either a Beretta or a Browning Citori will give you a lot of gun for the money. Either gun can be rebuilt if necessary - but they're both 100,000 shell guns.
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Old September 26, 2009, 10:28 AM   #31
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My brother in law has one and I asked him if it was Belgian or Jap and he had no idea. After breaking it down I finally found the "made in japan" hidden inside the works. They don't seem very proud of it. Has anybody ever seen it on the outside?
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Old September 26, 2009, 12:03 PM   #32
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The Citori has been made in Japan since it was introduced in 1973. I assumed it was common knowledge. Miroku makes great guns. Fwiw, Browning has never made their own guns in their own factory.

"Founded in 1893 and the largest of the three Japanese firearms makers (Howa and SKB are the other two), Miroku builds the lion's share of the 170,000 guns made in the country every year (guns are highly restricted in Japan, which exports almost every gun it makes)."

Berettas fit me better. Oh well.

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Old September 26, 2009, 12:11 PM   #33
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http://www.browning.com/customerserv...tail.asp?ID=90

Question:
Where are Browning firearms manufactured?

Answer:

Browning firearms have been traditionally made in locations world-wide. John M. Browning's first rifle, the Single Shot, was made in Ogden, Utah. The next guns carrying the Browning name were made in Belgium. This continued for many decades. This was the result of John M. Browning's lasting relationship with Fabrique Nationale, in Herstal, Belgium. Most Browning guns were made in Belgium by F.N. until the mid '70s when some production was shifted to Miroku in Japan. Today's Browning firearms are made in either Belgium, Portugal, Japan or in the United States. With some exceptions this is the breakout:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Browning Firearm Manufacturers


Belgium
Superposed


Belgium (assembled in Portugal)
Gold 12 and 20 ga. shotguns Silver shotgun, Maxus shotgun, Hi-Power Pistol, FN Pistols, BAR Mark II Safari Rifle, and BAR Shorttrac and Longtrac rifles.


Italy
The BDA 380 Autoloading pistol

Japan
Citori, Cynergy, BLR Lightweight, BLR Lightweight '81, A-Bolt II, X-Bolt, BT-99, BL-22 Rifle, Auto-22 Rifle, T-Bolt, BPS (all), and Gold 10 ga.

United States
Buck Mark Pistols and rifles




------------------------------------------------------------------------
The tradition of making Browning sporting firearms overseas was started with John M. Browning's Auto-5 semi-automatic shotgun design being produced by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. Production on many of the models made in Belgium shifted to Miroku in Japan in the mid-70's due to significant cost increases in Belgium.


We at Browning consider ourselves an worldwide company. We are proud of our tradition of producing the world's best firearms at the worlds best factories -- where ever they be.

If your question still remains unanswered, please call our Consumer Department directly at: 800.333.3288 or 801.876.2711
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Old September 26, 2009, 01:42 PM   #34
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Quote:
My brother in law has one and I asked him if it was Belgian or Jap and he had no idea. After breaking it down I finally found the "made in japan" hidden inside the works. They don't seem very proud of it. Has anybody ever seen it on the outside?
Yes, it is stamped on the left side of the top barrel, right next to the Browning address and the gauge/chamber designation.
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Old September 27, 2009, 04:57 PM   #35
LHB1
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Quote: "A guy has a 12 guage Browning Citori (Belgium made) that he is thinking about selling and threw out $7 to $800."

As others have posted, all Browning Citori shotguns are and have been made in Japan. The (previous model) Browning Superposed shotguns were made in Belgium. Try to find out whether your friend has a Citori (made in Japan) or a Superposed (made in Belgium).
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Old September 27, 2009, 05:08 PM   #36
oneounceload
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Quote:
My brother in law has one and I asked him if it was Belgian or Jap and he had no idea. After breaking it down I finally found the "made in japan" hidden inside the works. They don't seem very proud of it. Has anybody ever seen it on the outside?
All the time - Japanese Brownings are some of the best mass-produced low-end over-unders made today. BTW, it says Made in Japan right on top of the barrels for all to see.

Comparing Berettas to Brownings is like comparing apples to oranges - yes, they're both fruit, but not the same - their actions are different, their stock dimensions are different, their weights are different
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Old October 3, 2009, 09:05 PM   #37
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The discussion regarding the merits of manufacturing qualities between the countries of Belgium and Japan brings to mind a comparison test conducted by Bill Resman between the Belgium made Browning Superposed and the (then) new Japanese made (in the Olin Kodensha plant) Winchester 101, reported on in the 1968 issue of The Gun Digest, titled "Browning Versus Winchester; the Upstart Against the Veteran". Though both guns fared well in this comparison (the Winchester was even found to have much better engraving), Mr. Resman concluded, "What the comparison boils down to is this: If you want a gun with top workmanship, an excellent bluing job and glasslike stocks, the first choice is definitely the Browning. If, however, you are interested in a gun with very good workmanship, and perhaps better handling qualities than that found in the Superposed, you can save yourself about a hundred dollars by buying the Winchester 101."

Though this article is decades old and both guns long discontinued (at least in their original forms), I found it interesting that the "Great Debate" continues to this day in a format (the internet) never dreamed of by the prognostics of yore.
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