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Old August 29, 2009, 10:00 AM   #26
greyson97
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yeah. dont let old timers brow beat you about bringing an 18" to the skeet range. I bring my benelli m4 to the range and people dont care, or theyre like, hey, thats the m4, the usmc shotgun. and i see other people bring their defensive shotguns as well. I saw someone bring a short PGO maverick. they couldnt hit anything but to each their own
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Old August 29, 2009, 10:40 AM   #27
Lee Lapin
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OK, I won't tell you about our range in the pasture. 8^)

Practice doesn't make perfect- practice makes PERMANENT. You need to practice the right things, unless you want to 'groove' bad habits into muscle memory. Learn the right things to do with a defensive shotgun, and practice those things.

SAFETY FIRST. SAFETY LAST. SAFETY ALWAYS. Be safe. Stay safe. Safety has to be reflex. Or you are not safe to be around when you have a gun in your hands. Not safe for yourself. Not safe for your family, or neighbors, or innocent passersby. Learn the Four Rules. Live the Four Rules. Do that FIRST. Take a Hunter Safety Course or whatever equivalent your state offers. Doesn't matter how old you are. Do it. Then live it.

Almost anything you do that gets you trigger time with the shotgun you use for HD is good for familiarization. Once you know how to administratively load, prepare to fire, fire, fire again, make safe and unload the gun safely, you've done what you need to do as far as that set of lessons is concerned. That's the beginning. That's the early part of the journey to knowing your gun as if it were a body part. You can spend weeks or months doing these things, it doesn't hurt, You need not rush things. It takes time.

A lot of us learned these things over a period of years while we were growing up, at the hands of eagle-eyed fathers, uncles, grandfathers, or other various assorted Old Men. They never let us make a mistake and get away with it. They kept us in line and taught us well.

If you didn't ever have any Old Men of your own, the best substitute I can offer you in the here and now is Robert Ruark's book The Old Man And The Boy. Buy yourself a copy and read it several times. It's still in print, in paperback, and doesn't cost a whole lot. It's worth it, I guarantee you. It won't teach you one thing about home defense directly, but you'll learn a lot you need to know. And if you ever get over towards eastern NC where Ruark grew up, PM me and I'll take you and show you that little yellow house. It's still there. And still yellow.

You need to learn to shoot the shotgun first. Stationary targets, clays, doesn't matter what. Learn to shoot, by learning to safely perform the steps I listed above (load, make ready to fire, fire, fire again, make safe, unload). If you want help with that, the NRA has a lot of instructors across the nation teaching basic classes. Give them a look at http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx and see if there is an instructor near you.

Once you learn to shoot, THEN you need to start learning to fight with a shotgun. Clays, plastic jugs of water, paper targets etc. don't shoot back. They don't attack you with guns or knives or clubs and adrenaline or drug-fueled rage.

The best way to learn to fight with a shotgun is to get training from someone who's very good at it. But before you go for training, you need the basics- you need to be absolutely, reliably, dependably safe in all aspects of your gunhandling. And you need to know how to shoot your shotgun safely. You can learn those things on your own and if you ever get to a serious gunfighting class with a professional instructor, you can concentrate on learning what that person has to teach you. If you are not safe on the firing line, you WILL get kicked out of a class, with no refund. If you go in not knowing the basics, you won't get what you should have gotten out of the class, and you'll slow down everyone else's learning too.

Everyone always complains that classes from 'known' professionals are too expensive. Except for people who have taken them... . Professional instruction cuts the time spent on your learning curve way down. A pro will catch stuff you're doing wrong that you didn't even know about, and set you straight. A pro will teach you things you'd never know you needed to learn if all you did was go out by yourself and blast targets.

And best of all, a pro will build your skills over time, all the while adding more and more and more pressure on you to perform. Gunfights = performance under pressure. No, nothing that happens on a flat range can equal the stress of a gunfight. But good training is as close as you can get without someone bleeding. I'm convinced most shooters let their egos get in the way of going to classes taught by professional trainers. They say it's too far to travel, it costs too much, it isn't worth it. I think that's nonsense. I think most people are scared of looking bad in front of a class of other shooters and a respected professional trainer.

I'd rather look like a ten-thumbed idiot on a flat range in front of a class and learn something (and I have done just that), than to have my life on the line and make that same dumb mistake for the first time. THAT is what good training is for. They call it "stress inoculation" in some places, like law enforcement and the military ( http://www.frontrangetraining.com/pa...s-inoculation/ ).

If you want to get an idea of what professionals do in class, watch their videos. Louis Awerbuck has a good one, though what he teaches has changed a bit since that one was made. As he says- "The state of the art is a moving target." I've heard Clint Smith's shotgun video is good, though I haven't seen it yet. The Second Amendment Foundation just sent out Rob Pincus' Fundamentals of Defensive Long Guns, and it's very good, though not exclusively focused on shotguns.

But most of all, give yourself time. It takes time to learn this stuff. Don't rush it. Learn the right things in the right order, and learn them well. The secret of the real professionals is that there are no advanced techniques- just a mastery of the basics. Learn the basics well and they will serve you well.

Stay Safe,

lpl
---------------------------------------
Robert Ruark book - http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...Robert%2DRuark

Louis Awerbuck video - http://shop.paladin-press.com/product/40/25

Clint Smith video - http://fmgstore.stores.yahoo.net/thradeshdvd.html

Rob Pincus video - http://www.imakenews.com/eletra/mod_...&lid=b11&uid=0
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Old August 29, 2009, 04:39 PM   #28
inSight-NEO
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"If eight rounds out of a SG isnt enough to deal with the matter at hand, then something is wrong."

Quote:
Incorrect. Something is wrong the second you feel you need a firearm in your hands. At that point, why limit your ability to respond by some preconceived notion about how these encounters "should" go down? Carrying a full mag or a couple extra rounds takes exactly zero effort but, if needed, may save your life.
True enough. Personally, I believe (military notwithstanding), the genesis of greater capacity was due to many violent LE encounters which, in the end, would have benefitted from higher capacity weaponry. This is, of course, understandable by any means.

But....in regards to "civilian" HD encounters:

I believe its best to learn how do become effective with less ammo than relying on more ammo as a saving grace. I mean, c'mon, unless you are involved in a massive/extensive firefight, are more than say 5 rounds (out of a shotgun) really necessary to end an HD conflict occuring within 15 to 20 feet? In addition, I personally dont think loading a shotgun "to the hilt" is such a great idea if the gun is to be left "as is" for many, many months at a time (no thanks to Mr. Murphy and his proverbial law). Some may agree with me here...Im sure others wont; doesnt matter though because if it ever comes down to it, I may be forced to defend my life one day...not theirs.

Besides, I honestly enjoy practicing with less than max capacity as it "forces" me to become more adept at using minimal resources, so to speak. For some reason, when I load up all the way, I tend to become a bit more sloppy. But, this is a personal preference/situation....each to his/her own.

Nothing wrong with keeping extra ammo nearby, but practice/familiarity are going to go a heck of a lot further than what type of gun you have and how many rounds are contained within.



Quote:
The chances of ever needing to use your HD shotgun are already infinitesimally small. Trying to predict how many BGs will be there when it happens is silly. Erring on the low side is even more silly.
True and true. But, if ones training relies on more and more ammo, then I fear one may become reliant on such a crutch. To me, its best to train on the lighter side of capacity...when it comes to HD duty anyway. After all, if you havent trained/acquired the ability to do what needs to be done within 5 or 6 rounds (for HD purposes), then chances are you either wont have the time or ability to make the other rounds count. See what Im getting at?

However, after all is said and done, its not truly my place to say "do this or dont do that." Its all up to what one feels is necessary in order to be comfortably prepared for an event such as a violent HD experience (as rare as it is purported to be). I just do not want to rely on strapping various ammo carriers on my SG (or feeling inclined to always keep it loaded at max capacity) in order to feel justifiably "prepared." Rather, I have tried to develop habits centered around, again, maximizing the use of minimal resources. Now, I do keep extra ammo nearby, but (in contrast to what I used to do) I now keep it off the gun. This works for me...if it does not work for someone else, so be it.
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Last edited by inSight-NEO; August 29, 2009 at 06:37 PM.
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Old August 29, 2009, 05:03 PM   #29
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A lot of us learned these things over a period of years while we were growing up, at the hands of eagle-eyed fathers, uncles, grandfathers, or other various assorted Old Men. They never let us make a mistake and get away with it. They kept us in line and taught us well.
All of lee's post is spot on... But this paragraph is 100% a reflection of my youth. I was 10 and fully trusted to take my .410 or bow or pellet rifle out for the day... No cell phones for momma to keep tabs with me either. She would jokingly just kiss me and tell me not to come running home to her if I shoot myself as I left... Pocket full of shells as I leave and a game bag of supper on return... But I am a decent "critter gitter" for it and cherish those training days even if I got frustrated with all the grown up instruction at the time.
Brent
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Old September 22, 2009, 03:57 PM   #30
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Thanks all...Especially Lee and Scattergun for your detailed answers. I think I will try to find some courses on basic shotgunning as well as fighting with long guns...Sounds useful and FUN!
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Old September 22, 2009, 04:08 PM   #31
oneounceload
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I am not a hunter, so I have no other reason to ever fire a shotgun
There are millions of folks who shoot a variety of clay games that would whole-heartedly disagree with that statement. Try it, you might just find a reason for Saturday mornings besides yard work.......


Quote:
Practice doesn't make perfect- practice makes PERMANENT.
Quite true - PERFECT practice makes perfect....IMPERFECT practice makes imperfect results, develops bad habits, flinches, etc......
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Old September 22, 2009, 04:19 PM   #32
bababooey32
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One ounce...My Saturday mornings are already filled with another vice: golf.!!

I'd really like to try skeet/trap/clays. I'm thinking of buying an O/U just for that purpose!
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Old September 22, 2009, 06:01 PM   #33
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One ounce...My Saturday mornings are already filled with another vice: golf.!!
WHAT?!?!?! You're not a doctor who plays on Wednesdays?!?!?!?!

Seriously, play golf on another day - go shoot sporting....once you get hooked, you'll think nicotine, alcohol, and heroin are easy to quit............


"Come to the dark side, we have cookies"

I can't believe they allow golf in TX - not with all you gun owners........
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Old September 22, 2009, 06:06 PM   #34
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Ive got a Mossber with the PG only and a 20" heat shrouded barrel and I amaze guys at the range by actually hitting clays!!! The funniest range day was when the scout master and some boyscouts set up a life size hannah montana and we took turns with my PG and some 00 buck!!
Ive got over 2000 rounds out of a PG and I've grown to love it
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Old September 22, 2009, 06:39 PM   #35
oneounceload
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yeah. dont let old timers brow beat you about bringing an 18" to the skeet range.
nothing about brow beating - at many clubs, short barrels aren't allowed for a variety of reasons....noise being one of them
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Old September 22, 2009, 06:44 PM   #36
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Out at the range On SR40 east of ocala, its free, and shooting am 18 or 20'' barreled scattergun doesnt bother anyone. In fact, as many people shoot HD guns out there as skeet guns.
I'm really not a mall ninja, i just love my PG shotty. Ive got others with stocks, but the PG rides with me in a pool cue case everywhere!
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Old September 22, 2009, 06:56 PM   #37
oneounceload
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been there - no thanks - WAY too many unsafe practices....want to seriously shoot some clays? go to Dunnellon - 5.5 miles east is Robinson Ranch Trap and Skeet
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Old September 22, 2009, 07:40 PM   #38
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i have a friend who went to prison for 10 years because he waited in his bedroom for the robber to come and killed him. he was mainly found guilty of murder because he was there waiting with out making his presence known and trying to scare off the intruder. the man had what my friend thought was a pistol (ended up being fake) and he took the shot, and spent 10 years because he didnt say get the F*** out of my house. "hunker down and wait".. not in western Washington

it may be different now, but im not taking the chance
I'd move...
I'd get a new lawyer.
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Old September 22, 2009, 11:56 PM   #39
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While an 18" barel is not ideal as oneonce pointed out and may not "swing" like a good field gun, the skeet range is a perfect place to practice loading and shooting repeatedly using cheap #8 birdshot as Lee indicated to contribute to muscle memory. I'm sure an experienced shooter will be wary around you because you don't have muzzle discipline and loading/handling down if you have simply bought a shotgun and a box of buck for the closet "just in case". You want to have absolute confidence you can handle and cycle your gun safely and competently. Missing a few clays is really no big deal if you learn how to safely handle your gun. You can always buy a longer vent rib sporting barrel if you enjoy clay shooting. Just learn to load and shoot, load and shoot, load and shoot. You could even shoot trap if you want but the ranges are longer and cylinder barrels throw patterns so large you can miss targets in the pattern at longer distances. If you have the ability to shoot on the skeet range "informally" just start with the high house and the low house stations so you can practice incoming and outgoing shooting. The side shooting is great practice but if someone is running away or to the side they are probably not a "threat" to you. Personally I think some of the best home defense shotguns have vent ribs and short 22 to 24 inch barrels with screw in chokes like turkey guns. However there is nothing wrong with a cylinder bore for home defense. rc
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Old September 23, 2009, 07:09 AM   #40
zombieslayer
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I'll agree, there are unsafe people out at that range off 40, but I've been there alone before too. I'll try Dunnellon. At 40, they dont even know what COLD RANGE and HOT RANGE mean!! But yeah, yall, clays are good training with any scattergun
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Old September 23, 2009, 10:03 AM   #41
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I can't believe they allow golf in TX - not with all you gun owners........
Sorry...I live in Austin. As many Texans have told me, "that's not TEXAS".

Golf is huge in TX. Our mild climate in the winter allows year-round play. It's long been a passion of mine, so I won't be giving it up anytime soon.
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Old September 23, 2009, 10:07 AM   #42
zombieslayer
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golf balls are fun to shoot at
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Old September 23, 2009, 10:26 AM   #43
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Dunnellon is shotgun only Trap, Skeet, 5-stand and FITASC - if you want slugs or rifle and pistol, head to Hernando Sportsmen in the Chassahowitzka WMA off 19

http://www.hernandosportsmansclub.com/
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Old September 23, 2009, 10:31 AM   #44
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Sorry...I live in Austin. As many Texans have told me, "that's not TEXAS".

Golf is huge in TX. Our mild climate in the winter allows year-round play. It's long been a passion of mine, so I won't be giving it up anytime soon.
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Used to live in Tyler and the Houston area - both have grown up a lot since I was there......

( if you like golf, come play the bazillion courses in this state, especially near Naples)

Back to topic - practicing for me means making sure I can load, reload, and unload without thinking - I'm NOT going to be clearing the house - I'm going to be in the bedroom calling 911 and pointing at the door

If you want to practice loading, get the AZOOM aluminum practice rounds - (many call them snap caps, but they really ARE practice rounds) - you can practice reloading, working the action, etc. safely
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Old September 25, 2009, 08:59 AM   #45
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golf balls are fun to shoot at
My foursome might frown on that....Our head pro would definitely frown on it!!!
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Old September 25, 2009, 07:03 PM   #46
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Yes...violence of the utmost is certainly rampant there. However, Id wager you are far more likely to encounter such atrocities (on a semi-regular to regular basis) living in South Africa than Oklahoma.
I see you've never been to Lawton.
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