The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 11, 2006, 08:33 AM   #51
Optical Serenity
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 513
Silvertips are what my dept issues. I raised such a stink when I got hired, that they issued me Ranger SXT. I personally love the Ranger SXT series...they are very consistent, and I love how they shoot. Also the extra petals can't do anything but hurt soft tissue during a shooting

Rest of the officers we have still carry Silvertips... I emailed Winchester and asked them about Silvertips, and they said that they prefer law enforcement in particular to use Ranger SXT over Silvertips, anyday.
Optical Serenity is offline  
Old January 11, 2006, 04:58 PM   #52
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Dept that issue silvertips negligent?

Quote:
Silvertips are what my dept issues. I raised such a stink when I got hired, that they issued me Ranger SXT. I personally love the Ranger SXT series...they are very consistent, and I love how they shoot. Also the extra petals can't do anything but hurt soft tissue during a shooting

Rest of the officers we have still carry Silvertips... I emailed Winchester and asked them about Silvertips, and they said that they prefer law enforcement in particular to use Ranger SXT over Silvertips, anyday.
I happen to have some understanding of the US Torts system. Doesn't that make you and your LEO-colleagues able to sue your dept for negligence etc?
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old January 11, 2006, 06:46 PM   #53
Optical Serenity
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 513
No, at least I don't believe so. I guess you could try it, but i doubt any jury would reward anyone for it.
Optical Serenity is offline  
Old January 11, 2006, 08:16 PM   #54
pickpocket
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 570
Most government entities in the U.S. are relatively immune from that kind of litigation...i.e. from its employees.
__________________
Semper Fi-
David Williams

"Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"
pickpocket is offline  
Old January 11, 2006, 09:25 PM   #55
NarcSgt
Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Posts: 58
Quote:
The thing that bothers me is that the officer inititated a search for drugs and died over some marijuana. Is this really a correct priority for society such that it causes the loss of a good man?
You can not judge the outcome of this tragic event by what we know after the fact. Remember Coates did not know what he was going to find, that is why he went beyond the traffic stop. The possibility is endless on what he could have found. Troopers all over our county are arresting more and more felons all because they chose to go beyond the traffic stop. Drugs are what were present in the bad guy’s car but it could have been anything. Let us remember that drugs lead to many things evil, murders, robberies and endless thefts. The profit of drug sales supports these activities and also terrorism. So as far as I am concerned the priorities of drug/criminal interdictors like Coates are right on. I sleep better at night knowing that Police Officers like Coates are out there, every night, every day..
__________________
All men die but few men truly live!
NarcSgt is offline  
Old January 11, 2006, 10:34 PM   #56
stevensc
Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Posts: 34
My computer is too slow for me to see the video so I am not sure exactly how the situation developed. Wasn't it possible for the trooper to take a shot to the head after a few to COM?
Steve
stevensc is offline  
Old January 11, 2006, 11:17 PM   #57
pickpocket
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 570
Yeah that's a good question. I've often wondered if there was an actual policy against head-shots...
__________________
Semper Fi-
David Williams

"Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"
pickpocket is offline  
Old January 12, 2006, 11:47 AM   #58
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,859
NarcSgt - we will have to agree to disagree. I'm troubled by a general policy of asking to search if there is not clear probable cause. Our college kids were hassled like quite a lot and I frankly just don't see it as a useful enterprise for police from a public policy viewpoint.

The utility of busting folks for marijuana is not clear either. If it were legal, then the financial gains for crooks and terrorists would be minimal.

Unless, there was some indication that the guy stopped was a BG (as it did turn out) - I'm not ok with just asking people to be searched. True, they can refuse but there is a coersive aspect of authortity that it being misused.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 12, 2006, 12:14 PM   #59
Optical Serenity
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 513
I don't believe its a matter of searching everyone, I know our department does not do that and if they find out you are asking to search everyone they will go insane.

Sometimes you get a gut feeling..and Trooper Coates may have gotten a gut feeling. He was assigned to their ICE unit after all.

When you do enough stops, like I do, you get to the point you have a pretty darn good idea if the person is a bad guy or not after you make contact. Sometimes even before...the hair on the back of your neck stands at attention, and you feel it approaching the car.
Optical Serenity is offline  
Old January 12, 2006, 01:12 PM   #60
MikeOrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2005
Posts: 144
Terminal ballstic data from FBI tests for various loads mentioned above:

125/38 Special +P Silvertip, bare gel 10 inches

145/357 Mag Silvertip, 15.8 inches

Some of the newer stuff:

230/45 Golden Saber, 15 inches
230/45 Ranger, 13.25 inches
230/45 Gold Dot, 16 inches
230/45 Hydra Shok, 14.9 inches
230/45 Tactical, 16.5 inches

125/357 SIG Gold Dot, 16 inches

155/40 Gold Dot, 10.7 inches
165/40 GD, 13 inches
180/40 GD, 14.5 inches

The 357 Mag Silvertip does 1210 fps from my 3 inch GP100, and makes IPSC major. Penetrates fine compared to the 40/45/357SIG above too.

No matter what you hit some bad guys w, unless you hit the right spot, they are going to stay up long enough to do damage...

Last edited by MikeOrick; January 12, 2006 at 04:47 PM.
MikeOrick is offline  
Old January 12, 2006, 03:50 PM   #61
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
MikeOrick

thanks for the data. interesting.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old January 12, 2006, 03:54 PM   #62
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
stevensc

Quote:
My computer is too slow for me to see the video so I am not sure exactly how the situation developed. Wasn't it possible for the trooper to take a shot to the head after a few to COM?
no. his 686 revolver was shot empty before he could realize that his COM shots didn't have enough effect. That's why I advocated semi-autos in this thread, wehere the shooting of Trooper Coates also was discussed from a revolver vs semi-auto perspective:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=193914
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old January 12, 2006, 06:14 PM   #63
SCCop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2005
Posts: 239
There have been some questions raised regarding Trooper Coates' request to search the vehicle. Mark was part of SCHP's very highly regarded (and successful) ACE team. ACE stands for Aggressive Criminal Enforcement, particularly drug trafficking and the recovery of stolen vehicles. These troopers work high-transient interstate areas (esp. I-95) and conduct stops on traffic violators like any other troopers. They ask for permission to search a high percentage of these vehicles, because that's what they do and how they find lots of dope.

Obviously Mark had some inclination that there may be some sort of criminal activity going on. Notedly, Blackburn had lots of trash and other items in his car like he had been living "on the road", which is common for drug runners. There are other clues present that most LEO's on here probably picked up on as well. Mark kept the conversation friendly without seeming overly concerned. We have perfected the "good old boy", gee-wiz, routine here and it works well. That's why people consent even when they know they have drugs. You can play it off well enough that they'll believe you won't find them if you do look. Also a lot people know that refusing will make you more suspicious and let's face it, most of us were raised to cooperate with LEO's and that instinct kicks in even if you know you're sitting on a kilo. It just seems wrong to say no.

Granted Blackburn didn't have a ton of dope, but the fact he had something speaks to Mark's abilities. ACE is an elite team and the SCHP is very selective of who they put on it. He made observations, he got the consent, and if Blackburn weren't a murderous piece of scum, he would have gotten the arrest. Last i heard, Blackburn is still incarcerated. He appealed saying that he somehow acted in self-defense. I believe he has been up for parole, but I see him doing his full time because Mark is considered a hero and favorite son in our fair state. Forgive me for rambling.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Teddy Roosevelt
SCCop is offline  
Old January 12, 2006, 09:01 PM   #64
NarcSgt
Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Posts: 58
Quote:
NarcSgt - we will have to agree to disagree. I'm troubled by a general policy of asking to search if there is not clear probable cause. Our college kids were hassled like quite a lot and I frankly just don't see it as a useful enterprise for police from a public policy viewpoint.

The utility of busting folks for marijuana is not clear either. If it were legal, then the financial gains for crooks and terrorists would be minimal.

Unless, there was some indication that the guy stopped was a BG (as it did turn out) - I'm not ok with just asking people to be searched. True, they can refuse but there is a coersive aspect of authortity that it being misused.
SSCop has said all that can be said. There is much more to all stops that we can not see from just a video. There were many indicators that Blackburn gave off, that would have given many interdiction cops enough reasonable suspicion to ask for consent. Remember if the person gives consent then that is all that is needed, to search without consent Coates would have needed much more. Our department requires us to have at least a reasonable suspicion before asking, and I think Coates had this. I am not from South Carolina but the indicators are the same, for any criminal. If you think college kids are being harassed maybe there should be a pole to find out how many of them use illicit drugs, or drink underage; I think the facts would astound you. As a saying goes, if you need a haircut where do you go? Meaning you look where you have a high probability to find what you are looking for.

Quote:
Unless, there was some indication that the guy stopped was a BG (as it did turn out) - I'm not ok with just asking people to be searched. True, they can refuse but there is a coersive aspect of authortity that it being misused.
You are right, across the country, there are cops that abuse the fact that all they need is consent to go in depth in to the public’s life. Coates did not coerce Blackburn. Just becuase there are a few that abuse the system does not mean that the system has failed.
__________________
All men die but few men truly live!
NarcSgt is offline  
Old January 13, 2006, 11:17 AM   #65
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,859
NarcSgt - there may be a high probability that many groups of young people use drugs. I'm not surprised at all, being at a college and having worked on drug issues. I ran the computer analyses for the entire state of Oregon's data on high school usage. It's certainly there.

Does the probability based on age or some other group characteristic really serve as a basis for asking to search? I will put out that unless there is something visible other than age or group - I'm troubled by this type of asking for a search.

The ACLU (horrors) recommends that one refuse a search. I think that is a good police for someone just trolling. I regard the officer that uniformly asks any of our kids just as they had a college sticker for a search as coming perilously close to abusing power and constitutional rights.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 14, 2006, 12:17 AM   #66
NarcSgt
Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Posts: 58
Quote:
Does the probability based on age or some other group characteristic really serve as a basis for asking to search? I will put out that unless there is something visible other than age or group - I'm troubled by this type of asking for a search.

The ACLU (horrors) recommends that one refuse a search. I think that is a good police for someone just trolling. I regard the officer that uniformly asks any of our kids just as they had a college sticker for a search as coming perilously close to abusing power and constitutional rights.
You are missing my point. You are stuck on the fact that college kids get asked to be searched, because you think it is just because they are college kids, a lot of other people also get searched. I am being sketchy with my facts and issues because the more I say, about what police look for, the more those that transport illegal items will learn and change tactics. There are many details in the video clip of Coates that would have lead many road cops to want to search. Like I said before there is more to traffic stops than what you can see on video. When you mention college kids I say yeah that is a place to possible look further. There are indicators that I will not get into, sorry.

If you are one of these college students that has been searched, all I can say is stay respectful. I won’t go into your situation since I do not for one, know the police officer that stopped you, two, I was not there and did not see what the other police officer saw.
__________________
All men die but few men truly live!
NarcSgt is offline  
Old January 14, 2006, 12:17 PM   #67
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,859
Obviously, the motivations of people, good guys, bad guys, officers, etc. differ. I would just point out that some of the stops are based on a continuum of factors. Some might be due to the person being stopped and some might be due to the personality or the officer or constraints by the higher ups.

Discretion is certainly there. You are so off base thinking that I have some personal incident that makes me have a bug about this.

Not so. I speak from a basic issue of civil liberties and qualms about our drug policies. About officer motivation - most are probably upstanding and dedicated. A proportion may not be. At the last meeting of the American Society for Criminology, I attend a panel of officers discussing interrogation techniques. It was pointed out by police that some departments were notorious in clearing cases with techniques that were not legit as the clearing was more important that the truth.

Street smarts are great but one has to wonder about the base of some of those smarts - if it is simply age, race or a college sticker , being bored or just wanted to take the chance of finding some drugs - then that is not the kind of spider sense that is legitimate.

I am uncomfortable for asking for searches not based on very clear signs of bad doing and not a spider sense that may or may not be based on nonprejudical aspects.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 14, 2006, 02:55 PM   #68
NarcSgt
Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Posts: 58
Quote:
I am uncomfortable for asking for searches not based on very clear signs of bad doing and not a spider sense that may or may not be based on nonprejudical aspects.
I hate to inform you that very clear signs of bad doing, is almost a definition of probable cause, which then means that you can search a vehicle without permission. So I will only submit that the signs that interdictors look for, are subtle verbal, non-verbal as well as other indicators that unless you have been interdicting for years you will not know what to look for. So it is not uncommon for those that dont do the job to not understand why police ask or dont ask for consent to search.

Quote:
Obviously, the motivations of people, good guys, bad guys, officers, etc. differ. I would just point out that some of the stops are based on a continuum of factors. Some might be due to the person being stopped and some might be due to the personality or the officer or constraints by the higher ups.
Glenn I am sorry I think I was missing your point. I think what you were originally referring to is what is called a pretext stop. This I do not agree with. These types of stops originate out of some sort of profile.

Now let me qualify my statement with not all profiles are bad. For instance if you are on a late shift, say after midnight, in a rural area, and you come across a pickup truck with two men wearing cowboy hats and you know there is not a location close by that has round the clock cowboy work and your local bars all close at midnight, I would say this is a good candidate for a DWI. You as a cop would follow this truck and wait for probable cause for a stop, violating any traffic law, and check them out. If they are not doing anything wrong they are cut loose, no harm done, if they are drunk then you possibly saved a life, which is good police work. So I will not say that all profiles are bad. Racial profiles are very bad, but watching for a criminal profile is good police work.

I hope I finally understood what you were trying to get through to me.
__________________
All men die but few men truly live!
NarcSgt is offline  
Old January 16, 2006, 12:36 PM   #69
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,859
NarcSgt - thanks for the intelligent discussion. Always a pleasure to have on the Internet.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 16, 2006, 11:53 PM   #70
shiningpathb4me
Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2006
Posts: 45
First Trooper on scene did exactly what he should

have - establish control of the situation by letting everyone there know he would kill them if they didn't do exactly what he told them to do. Considering the stress he was under, and the emotions he was feeling, he did a pretty good job of it. His voice got a little high pitched, as though he was having breath control problems - he was'nt using his diaphragm to bark commands. A deeper voice has a little more authority to it.
shiningpathb4me is offline  
Old September 24, 2009, 02:43 PM   #71
reborn84
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2009
Posts: 1
"I hate to second-guess Trooper Coates but I always point out to students that his last fatal error was not seeking available cover. Blackburn's vehicle was right beside him and he had one round left. Instead of taking the cover and reloading, he went for his radio. God knows we all want back-up in a gun fight but that gave Blackburn the time and opportunity to fire the final shot that pierced Mark's side. Remember there's a lot more to a gunfight that accuracy alone."

I guess most people would not imagine that the attacker could still retaliate after taking 5 .357 shots on the torso. I would probably assume that 5 rounds of 9mm on the torso should get the job done, much less 5 magnum rounds. Few years ago, there was a case where a lunatic charged against two police officers with a crowbar and he was shot 4 times in the torso by .38 Smith and Wesson. He died before the ambulance could arrive.
reborn84 is offline  
Old September 24, 2009, 03:15 PM   #72
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
Is this ironic or what?

reborn84's 1st post is to create a zombie thread.



And darn I can't find the link to see the video.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old September 24, 2009, 03:21 PM   #73
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,859
Yep, the necromancy forum is closed - nothing new - so let's sleeping zombie thread lie.

Closed.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13582 seconds with 9 queries