The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 8, 2009, 08:26 AM   #26
Dannyl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Cape Town - South Africa
Posts: 627
First, Well done to the police officers for saving the life of the hostage.

There is, however a lesson to be learnt;

That is of working as a team and being constantly aware of each other's field of fire in relevance to the oponent.
Tactical movement in coordination with your team mate is essential to allow each officer to be able to respond wihtout any hesitation of hitting his team mate (and without actually hitting him as it happened in this case) in a scenario such as this even the slightlest hesitation can cost someone serious injury or death.

I AM NOT criticizing the officers, just pointing to something that can be learnt form this.

Brgds,
Danny

Last edited by Dannyl; September 8, 2009 at 08:32 AM.
Dannyl is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 01:05 PM   #27
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 987
Agreed, in every incident there are lessons to be learned. The issue I have is the accusatory MMQBing especially in the media.

There is a incident now where some Coppers in the course of serving a search warrant on a known drug house had Pit Bulls deployed against them. the Coppers stopped the threat and some bullet fragments struck the children that were in the room. There is some media uproar against the Cops. Instead of blaming the human debris that is storing huge amounts of illegal drugs and attack drugs in the same home as kids.

same kinda idiotic comments
Wagonman is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 02:58 PM   #28
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
"What does OC and DRT mean?"

OC = oleoresin capsicum, commonly known as pepper spray.
DRT = dead right there.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
Erik is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 04:49 PM   #29
isanchez2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 344
Quote:
I realize they had time to try OC-hence my suggestion that, if they had time to try OC, they could have (instead) tried a disarm with an impact weapon.

OC isn't first choice on a knife-wielding subject, anymore than a baton is, but a mechanical disarm is more reliable than a chemical restraint, if you have to choose.
Do a little research on why attempting to "disarm" a perp with a knife is a bad idea. You will find some nasty pics of severely lacerated officers . No thanks and glad the good guys came out alive.
isanchez2008 is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 07:52 PM   #30
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 686
It seems the one thing I'm bringing away from this is that a discussion of the subtle, often essentially insoluble tactical issues presented by a dynamic tactical situation are lost on many people.

YES, lethal force was justified here-no doubt. EMPLOYING the deadly force without collateral damage was the trick, and it seems that luck played a part in this situation's successful resolution. Eliminating the role of luck is what training is for.

YES, I'm aware that a knife disarm is tricky. I'm also aware, having done it, that it's possible with appropriate coverage from an armed partner and aggressive use of a baton.

I'm not trying to reason out a scenario where the bad guy survives; he made his decision, and that's fine. I'm wondering what I would have done on a crowded (the loop at that time of morning is pretty crazy, actually) sidewalk in that situation.

One thing I haven't seen discussed, although I've wondered it myself; knowing your partner is wearing a vest, would you consider intentionally using him as a backstop? If you knew his vest would stop your duty ammo, it would ALMOST make sense to do so-although it would take great communication and trust.

Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is online now  
Old September 8, 2009, 08:30 PM   #31
majortoo
Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2009
Posts: 27
Thank the Police

Good job, Chicago Police! Another element to consider in the complex situational dynamics (AKA: when the stuff is hitting the fan) is the possibility (probability?) that the suspect is high on some controlled substance. That being the case, there is a whole new set of rules that kick in, according to the behavioral science professionals. The LEO (law enforcement officer) often has about three seconds to make a life or death decision. Bottom line: we don't pay these officers enough, in terms of money or respect.
majortoo is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 08:46 PM   #32
BikerRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2007
Location: "State of Discombobulation"
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
One thing I haven't seen discussed, although I've wondered it myself; knowing your partner is wearing a vest, would you consider intentionally using him as a backstop? If you knew his vest would stop your duty ammo, it would ALMOST make sense to do so-although it would take great communication and trust.

This is just plain STUPID!

I'll tell you what. I will give you my vest, shoot through a pork loin and have you stop the bullet, wearing my vest. If you cannot see the idiocy of that, there is nothing more to be discussed with you IMO.

Mods, if I've broken a rule here I'm sorry. I am calling this one like I see it without any niceties.

Biker
BikerRN is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 09:04 PM   #33
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,918
BikerRN ~

The general rule of thumb for members is simply this: if you think your post is over the line for TFL's standards, it probably is. You can edit it to tone it down. It's quite possible to express strong opinions without resorting to outright rudeness. ("Think twice, post once" - can't remember which mod has that as a sig line, but it's a good idea for most of us.)

As for the idea you're expressing: I get it! But I also think Richard Davis would disagree with you. He used to regularly demonstrate his faith in his products in the most vivid possible way. You might say he stood behind his work...

DTGuy ~

Richard Davis' example notwithstanding, I don't believe that deliberately using one's partner as a backstop would be approved by any LEA policy or by any department trainers I've ever heard of. Even if that were not the case, too much could go too badly haywire: if the situation is moving so rapidly that you must shoot, it's probably moving too rapidly to direct your shots with that degree of precision. It would really suck to miss the vest by 1/2 inch.

Your first idea was better: move in aggressively and do what you need to do to end the situation. And remember that the ground makes a better backstop than your partner does.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 09:51 PM   #34
WIN71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2005
Posts: 639
Good luck

Quote:
As for the idea you're expressing: I get it! But I also think Richard Davis would disagree with you. He used to regularly demonstrate his faith in his products in the most vivid possible way. You might say he stood behind his work...
I can't shoot that straight in the first place let alone even pretend to be able to reliably predict where the bullet will go after it hits and passes through. Obviously if the backstop officer is hit with a drastically slowed projectile in the vest fine. I'd worry about femoral, brachial arteries, face, neck, eyes, head and dozens of other semi lethal areas.
Besides, didn't Gecko 45 have a similar plan ?
__________________
Air goes in and out. Blood goes 'round and 'round.
Any variation on this is a very bad thing.
개인 정보를 보호하십시요
WIN71 is offline  
Old September 8, 2009, 11:57 PM   #35
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,387
Quote:
But I also think Richard Davis would disagree with you. He used to regularly demonstrate his faith in his products in the most vivid possible way. You might say he stood behind his work...
But not with 2 year old Zylon vests.

Quote:
One thing I haven't seen discussed, although I've wondered it myself; knowing your partner is wearing a vest, would you consider intentionally using him as a backstop? If you knew his vest would stop your duty ammo, it would ALMOST make sense to do so-although it would take great communication and trust.
As noted there is the chance of missing the vest itself. The other aspect is that you don't know that the vest being worn will stop the round. That is why they are called bullet resistant and not bullet proof. Yes, a vest rated for a given round should stop the round, but as at least 2 cops found out with their 2nd Chance Zylon vests (of which one died). Even if the vest stops the round, there is the potential for serious injury due to blunt force trauma.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 9, 2009, 02:25 AM   #36
Dannyl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Cape Town - South Africa
Posts: 627
There goes good ol' rule No2 out the window

On a second though, no.
I am not willing to do away with good old " Do not point your muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy" and that includes people wearing a vest. more so if we are on the same team.

For anyone proposing this, please ask yourself if you will be prepared to be the "backstop" or only the shooter, I guess you know what the answer is.

It all goes back to training, to the level where situational awareness of your partners and your position is always in the back of your mind.

Brgds,

Danny
Dannyl is offline  
Old September 9, 2009, 03:13 AM   #37
Rich Miranda
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2008
Location: San Antonio, not San Antone...
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
The officer who was wounded is 41 and has 11 years on the job. The other officer is 40 with 16 years on the job.
If these two officers DID use DTGuy's idea of a human backstop, I guess low man on the totem pole 'catches'.
__________________
Read this!: I collect .38 Special and .357 Mag cartridges and I will PAY CASH for the headstamps I don't already have! Please PM me.
Please donate blood, plasma, and platelets - people's lives literally depend on it.
Rich Miranda is offline  
Old September 9, 2009, 08:19 PM   #38
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 686
Hah, I agree that it's pretty far out there.

OTOH, I was taught a last-ditch disarm that involved locking the weapon pointed at you directly at your trauma plate to prevent it pointing elsewhere. And I suppose that, in just the right circumstance, it could be the best option.

One thing I really believe is that thinking in black and white about situations like these will only end badly. Do I think aiming at my partner's vest is *really* a good idea-no. And I'm guessing my partner would agree.

But could it, someday and some way, be the ONLY way of resolving a situation without innocent death? Unlikely, but I can imagine situations (mostly clenches, with a partner getting attacked with a knife) where it may work. And I like to consider unusual solutions to unusual situations, since I've never gotten it in writing that I'll only ever be caught in 'typical' situations.

And for everyone who's sure they know the perfect solution to any situation-good for you! Hope that works out for you-

Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is online now  
Old September 10, 2009, 01:45 AM   #39
BikerRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2007
Location: "State of Discombobulation"
Posts: 1,333
Larry,

Thank you for posting that clarification. It does a lot to help me to understand where you are coming from.

In some ways, I like the way you are thinking, in that you are thinking "outside the box." The issue I have is with getting shot, or shooting a non-threat. This is a bad idea for many reasons, not the least of which is the litigeous society we live in today.

With respect to Pax and Richard Davis, while he may have believed in his product enough to use the "shoot yourself" method of salesmanship I tend to be a little more cautious than that.

Generally time is in favor of the responding parties, and not that of the hostage taker. So, in that case, why not go way outside the box, and not stop the problem right here, right now. Since it has escalated to a hostage situation why not just pull up the lawnchair and wait him or her out?

Yes, it would suck to be the hostage, but then it sucks to be the hostage at any time. If it appears that the hostage taker is going to harm the hostage, then by all means, use lethal force. As you may be able to guess, I am an advocate of prolonging the situation out, if appropriate, and having everyone come through the situation alive.

Please don't let that desire make you think that I am against shooting a hostage taker. The problem is, once that window of opportunity is gone, it's gone. It may re-appear later, but there are no guarantees that it will. Now it's time to rack up the Overtime.

Biker
BikerRN is offline  
Old September 10, 2009, 04:33 AM   #40
Snakum
Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 84
Quote:
You'd be amazed how quickly someone can cover 5-10 yards and stick you. I'm not going anywhere near someone with a knife, and I'd treat one the same way I'd treat a firearm.
I generally would, too. The only diff would be that if the person with the knife merely held his ground and looked menacing after he pulled it he wouldn't get aerated. One step toward me, however, and that changes.

Then again, with my generally rotten luck he'd be an expert knife thrower escaped from the circus and I'd get aerated because I didn't fire when he pulled the thing.

As far as the shoot in Chitown, I dunno if I'd have taken that one, but I'm glad I didn't have to make that call. I had my share of run-ins with cops as a young hothead/soldier/biker. But now I'm very glad they do what they do and I won't try to second guess them. It's a tough job. Stuff happens.
__________________
Malfunction drills? I run Glocks and AKs so I don't have to bother with that stuff.

Last edited by Snakum; September 10, 2009 at 04:39 AM.
Snakum is offline  
Old September 10, 2009, 11:51 AM   #41
WIN71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2005
Posts: 639
Exactly

Quote:
And for everyone who's sure they know the perfect solution to any situation-good for you! Hope that works out for you-
Funny thing about solutions. No matter what or where the problem and no matter what legal course of action is taken if the outcome is positive the repercussions are generally negligible. Things start getting cloudy after the situation stabilizes. Monday morning brings hundreds of alternate actions that may have worked. That's hundreds of actions for every past situation. Sometimes good to read, always impossible to memorize.
Most departments have published guidelines regarding use of deadly force. Some departments have general guidelines for specific situations. Even those can be violated if at the instant the action is taken it can be articulated accurately that that was all that could have been done AND it worked.
I'm not sure if all here are aware that in almost all large departments in this country there are usually two separate investigations into officer involved shootings. One is criminal which is self explanatory, the other internal. The old "Oh crap, here come the headhunters“, internal affairs. Lots and lots of the rules of evidence that will apply in the criminal investigation do NOT apply to the administrative investigation. In this state as in probably all states, the administrative investigation cannot be used in criminal court. Why? For several reasons not the least of which is the employee does not have the right to remain silent. It’s a non criminal administrative investigation.
It is in this report that departmental policies, procedures, alternate courses of action, etc. etc. are brought up. The coppers that investigate these types of things don't miss much and although they don't usually recommend any alternate courses of action someone up the ladder may.
The difference between recommended courses of action on the internet and those from the employing department is also obvious. The department knows fairly well what the officer has been taught, what the departmental guidelines are and has first hand information of the situation as it unfolded.
Just one more tidbit. Press releases are provided by departmental employees who have had at least some training. On major events they are most certainly thought out ahead of time and until all criminal investigations are completed the general public will receive a general overview only. Sort of "just the facts mam" but not all of them.
Makes it difficult to draw accurate conclusions.
__________________
Air goes in and out. Blood goes 'round and 'round.
Any variation on this is a very bad thing.
개인 정보를 보호하십시요
WIN71 is offline  
Old September 10, 2009, 03:15 PM   #42
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
Knives hurt, I got stuck with one in a bar, was working and escorting a guy out the door when his bud stuck me in the back of my neck. It hurt bad. Bled a bit too and that made the floor slick. Glad it turned out for the good is all I can say. Used to have that knife but cant recall where I locked it up...
markj is offline  
Old September 11, 2009, 07:04 AM   #43
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 850
Working at the Cavern Club in Liverpool UK, 1960 to 1964, full time day job, 3 nights a week Bouncer (young family extra cash) Stabbed on two separate occasions, not fun. First time, small blade into back, second attempt to push home made spike into my sternum, I caught that in right wrist, he suffered a broken eye socket, jaw and cheek bone. Adrenalin is one hell of a hand speed enhancer!

Reference vests and projectiles, saw a frangible 9mm shot at a vest (as a joke!) it was hung on a target holder, in a range. Wee tiny bits of feather like bits floating about? Projectile through both sides! Light weight projectile, hi speed, very polished finish on the bullet.

Hit into steel plate, totally disintegrated the projectile. Which was it's intent, shooting steel.
Brit is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11826 seconds with 9 queries