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Old September 2, 2009, 09:52 AM   #1
diablo508
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Constructive possession arrest

this was posted in another forum by "mekender" I go to thought I put it over here as well

Possessing a stock for a pistol can get you in just as much trouble as actually attaching it, be warned!

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/...arreled-rifle/

The picture he posted of the pistol is below. I have to wonder if the second receiver is a rifle receiver. If so, this would be a very interesting case to watch.

http://floridaguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=15431

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Old September 2, 2009, 10:18 AM   #2
billyj571
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never seen one of those.
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Old September 2, 2009, 10:24 AM   #3
diablo508
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HK MP5 clone
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Old September 2, 2009, 10:37 AM   #4
Claude Clay
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regarding the article-- it says listed on craigslist.

strange since they DO NOT accept gunny stuff and are VERY quick to delete any attempt to list such.
perhaps the whole story is out there and yet to be told.

regardless, the items in that picture and no paper work can get you in trouble.
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Old September 2, 2009, 11:07 AM   #5
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Looks like stuff a guy with a Class III license would have...

... what makes you think the owner doesn't have the required paperwork?
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Old September 2, 2009, 11:42 AM   #6
diablo508
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...uh, cause he was arrested
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Old September 2, 2009, 12:00 PM   #7
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That'll teach me to read the links...

... sorry, Diablo.
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Old September 2, 2009, 12:00 PM   #8
orangello
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"Arrested" or "charged" doesn't always mean the person will be convicted of the crime. Convictions happen in a court room, not in a cruiser.
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Old September 2, 2009, 12:18 PM   #9
paull
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I don't think "constructive possession" has anything to do "construction".
p
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Old September 2, 2009, 12:48 PM   #10
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Constructive possession means you have access to but not immediate possession of something. This could be something a felon that has the combination to a gun safe or you have possession of all the parts to make the prohibited item but it's not put together.

This is a simple explanation but I think it works

If you possess a short barreled AR-15 upper with no SBR registered lower and have a legal length AR 15 you are in constructive possession of a SBR. In this case he had possession of the parts necessary to turn the pistol into a SBR.

Same thing if you possessed all the parts to turn a firearm into a machine gun as well as the firearm. You would be in possession of a machine gun even though you hadn't installed the parts yet.
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Old September 2, 2009, 01:27 PM   #11
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Same concept applies, or at least used to apply...

... to jacking deer in Maine, as far as wardens were concerned.

If you had a high powered light in your kit, and some other items, you could be charged with jacking deer even if you were just sitting around your campsite drinking beer with the boys.

This happened to my cousin, who was a cop in Massachusetts. Some of the guys from his PD went on a hunting/camping trip in Maine. Being cops, they brought their off-duty sidearms, and since they were camping, they had some spotlights rigged around their campsite. A warden stopped by, found lights and pistols, and voila - all spent the night in jail for "jacking deer."

Not sure if they changed the laws up there in the two decades since, but my cousin and his buddies were thoroughly ticked.
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Old September 2, 2009, 07:59 PM   #12
shade_1313
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Okay, question for those who know the class 3 rules and such better than I do.

If I get an AR pistol and have a regular AR carbine/rifle, any chance they'd try to claim intent to build an unregistered SBR?
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Old September 2, 2009, 08:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
If I get an AR pistol and have a regular AR carbine/rifle, any chance they'd try to claim intent to build an unregistered SBR?
No.

This tard was asking to be busted and rightly so .

You can have a bag full of FA fire control group parts for an M16 , a drilling jig for the sear hole at your house , better not have an AR or its Buh Bye . 5 in the Big house .
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
You can have a bag full of FA fire control group parts for an M16 , a drilling jig for the sear hole at your house , better not have an AR or its Buh Bye . 5 in the Big house
Yep. I know first-hand of one such conviction.

A guy had one of those "pre-86 auto sears" they used to advertise in the back of the Shotgun News. Apparently, he'd drop it in when shooting with his friends, then take it out when they left the range.

Thing is, Joe Bob had a ritual he practiced with his wife every Friday night that involved alcohol abuse and drama. Police got tired of being called out to his home on such a regular basis, and on one visit, a responding officer noticed several partially-disassembled rifles in the living room.

Given that he was dealing with that magical combination of booze, testosterone and anger, the officer began to secure the weapons. The officer noticed that there were more internals than there were receivers, and he inquired, to which Joe Bob said, "well, as long as I take that thing [the auto sear] out, it's legal."

Nope. Sorry. Thanks for playing.

Joe Bob's defense attorney was a shooting partner, and this was my first glimpse into What the Hughes Amendment Hath Wrought.
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Old September 2, 2009, 11:20 PM   #15
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Soon, soon I hope we at very least gather things together to get the Hughes Amendment struck. There is absolutely no constitutional defending of it whatsoever.
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Old September 2, 2009, 11:42 PM   #16
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Isn't there something in the law that affects the possession of a broomhandle Mauser machine pistol which has something to do with your also being in possession of the wooden stock/holster? I seem to remember that having one or the other was legal; but having both put you in violation on some level.
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Old September 3, 2009, 07:05 AM   #17
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
If I get an AR pistol and have a regular AR carbine/rifle, any chance they'd try to claim intent to build an unregistered SBR?
Actually, there is an ATF letter out that says if you have a pistol/SBR lower and a rifle AR upper, that anything more than the one short-barrel upper for the pistol/SBR lower is constructive possession.

Personally, I think that would be a very hard case to win at SCOTUS level; but that is the official ATF position on it and cases with similar sets of facts have resulted in convictions at the District Court level.

If you don't want to be the guy with his neck on the line, I wouldn't keep extra short-barrelled uppers around unless the only thing you have is SBR/pistol lowers.
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Old September 3, 2009, 07:46 AM   #18
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Is there any curtailing of the ATF's power? They seem to be able to make up whatever law they want as they go and anything goes.
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Old September 5, 2009, 09:33 PM   #19
shade_1313
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Wasn't actually intending to own more short uppers than I have pistol/SBR lowers to put them on, just wanted to get a read on how anal they'd be/would they claim I was going to just swap the upper to a stocked upper... realizing, of course, that I'd really need to come to their attention before they'd likely try to mess with me.

*edit* My apologies, everyone. I wasn't trying to bypass vulgarity filters or anything, just wasn't thinking when I typed.

Last edited by shade_1313; September 5, 2009 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Bad way to word that
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Old September 6, 2009, 04:12 PM   #20
Bartholomew Roberts
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"4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches)
for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a
rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches)
barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with
one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their
possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a
violation of the NFA."

Source: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wba...f_letter90.txt
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Old September 6, 2009, 05:39 PM   #21
srt 10 jimbo
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It was in Florida Guntrader, The police monitor the boards their
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Old September 6, 2009, 06:51 PM   #22
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Gotta agree with the government on this one. Selling a handgun with both a shoulder stock and a vertical foregrip is just asking to be arrested. Just pay the stupid $200 and be legal.
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